| Source | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgifWmruNQI |
|---|---|
| Readwise URL | https://read.readwise.io/read/01kv42sx3bnffp59gvxx3w5gzf |
| Readwise ID | 01kv42sx3bnffp59gvxx3w5gzf |
| Date | 2023-05-26 |
| Author | App Masters |
| Category | video |
| Cover image | https://i.ytimg.com/vi/pgifWmruNQI/sddefault.jpg?v=646e50ff |
foreign [Music] ation it is Steve p young founder of appmasters.com I am back we did a live okay in person workshop last Friday I just got back from Mau Vegas where I got
to meet renon he’s like Steve I only came about because you said you’re going to be there so I came out and we got to meet in person and really talk shop about his app so congratulations for non shout out to you but today we’re going to talk my favorite topic all about that money baby all about app monetization how you can win back use discounts properly to make sure you really get your users to subscribe because I believe and our guests May disagree that if you get somebody to actually pay you they’ll pay attention to your app so
thereby increasing your retention rate and then if you add value obviously you built a great app you will keep them for a long time so we’re gonna break it all down with my guess so let’s bring on Rosie mascal whoops I had a video here we go let’s try again Rose cozy mascal [Music]
okay let me give it hi Rosie welcome to the show hi thank you so much for having me I loved Rosie’s presentation at promotion Summit in London in March and Rosie was kind enough to share some of her slides with me Rosie I just literally copied like I exported that monetization slide and I was like this was so amazing she was talking all about monetization she is let me give you a proper intro growth leave growth lead
with experience across product-led growth product management analytics and consultancy for b2c app she’s an expert when it comes to running a growth process getting user feedback which I hope we can have time for and product management as well and you can check out her amazing medium blog it’s all into the YouTube description or if you’re watching this on YouTube or I’m sorry YouTube description and if you’re listening to this on just the podcast it’s in the
podcast as well and I really want to get down to the user interviews I think it’s super important there all right Rosie welcome I want to make sure we have that plug in there uh all right I want to say hi to a few people because you know Rosie if you say hi to a few people they start commenting more what’s up Kevin Patrick is here Romaine is here as well Joe should be a good one we promise it will be a good one Eric as well because I did give away one of my games for the first time oh Eric let me know how it goes you’ll be pleasantly surprised all right Rosie I love this
topic let’s talk about you know some people call it lifestyle marketing I don’t know what to call it really CRM I like to just say how do I get re-engage my users and make that money so let’s kick it off with your CRM Thank You For Preparing all the slides for us no worries um I don’t know what to call it either I feel like CRM push email lifecycle marketing database marketing some people call it database marketing only the Nerds call it that right
hahaha okay these when I think about CRM these were the big things that came to mind I’ve either worked with people who have nothing in which case don’t snooze on it you need to do it right and there’s some really cool brands that I think are doing it really well um some brands that I don’t use and the third bullet there is from my boyfriend so I can talk you through that um but then counter to that I’ve also worked with people who have essentially
killed the channels because they’ve done it too much too high frequency too low quality and people just get Banner blindness which is like a psychological thing where if you see a banner too many times then it looks like an ad you start to check out um so that happens with push and then in terms of email um you can just go into people’s spam so like really big issues if you spam people so as a balance it’s a massive balance balance that’s that balance
so so I would say I’ll talk you through a funny story so product product roadmap what should we do monetization what should we do at monetization what’s the next thing we should do and I’m like discounts discounts discounts discounts however took a little while to build in it’s like I don’t know if we can spend that time right now and so it was really hard to prioritize the thing about discounts is if you build it in one time you can then use them push you can then
use an email you can then use it in the app you can there’s so many different ways that you can use it so I think in terms of are you deciding whether to building discounts into your app from like the ability to do that if you don’t already have it my answer is yes do it as soon as possible um the slide is an example from Tinder Rosie can I can I jump in on this real quick now I’m starting to say discount like literally on onboarding after that first paywall if people do not buy that first time give them a quick little discount
because my hypothesis is that I think everybody knows this most people who buy drink buy during that first time user experience during the onboarding process so I almost like want to optimize that experience Jake says Jake Moore from Super wall is like have two paywall views and so my spin on that one my version my Steve version on that would be show them the normal play wall if they hit X on that pay wall show them the discounted version with some urgency on there what do you think about that
I like that I was talking to someone recently who has a gratitude app and they do exactly that you can see the paywall it’s like here’s how your trial works if you try and exit that it’s like 50 off right I I like it because essentially if someone doesn’t pay in the first instance yeah you can retarget them with push and with email but they might never come back to that you know there’s like a there’s different cohorts so if you can just try and grab those people before they’re gone and your point at
the beginning on if you get people to pay they will retain it’s an interesting one I when I look at like retention analysis and like cohort analysis the people who are paying always retain more I don’t know whether it’s like I’ve paid for this thing so I have to use it I personally do that I will literally buy an exercise program and then I paid for this I’ve given them my money so I have to do it so I think there’s a real thing there and get people to pay and there is actually a causal relationship between paying and retaining and so I definitely
think hit people with the discount because there’s some people who are price sensitive and they’re never ever gonna pay at the first the first price you do um not to say bring a price down don’t do that just offer them a discount well you think about e-commerce Brands and you know here I’ll share the slides but you think about e-commerce Brands you know everybody’s in that little Spinning Wheel right like they’re almost trying to give you that discount right off the bat to just get you to buy that very first time too so that it can get you in the email well they can drip you to that Spinning Wheel does work you know
anyways go ahead this one so this is just an example from Tinder did a little case study um and it’s just like you’ll push copy with discounts there’s so many things you can use scarcity principle one hour left the countdown um but realistically people know it’s not it’s not one hour left or like you’re gonna see this again so I’d be careful of how often you do this you’ll see later that um com has been telling me that last chance to get 50 off for about a
year so I’d be careful it’s a great tactic but also use it with uh not too many times I bought one of those but I think I was a day late but I still got the 15 off you want to give them their money your money they will definitely date you I bought it it was a 50 off the lifetime so that’s what I ended up buying but yeah I love it yeah you know one of I’ll add to this too one of the things that we saw with we have
an app community and Masoud shout out to you for sharing this he said look I started adding a push notification to when people actually canceled their trial and then he gave them a discount and he’s seen some sales really come in through that and Rosie you know the way I feel about this is like look dude you would have lost this guy anyway yeah you know this person anyways so like any money is in my opinion good money because then like it is a re-engagement tactic like to our point in the data point that I’m using when I say you know people who pay attention is I have a
client five million monthly active users 1 million oriented downloads he’s like help me he’s like Steve help me increase retention and then he’s watching our videos and finally added the paywall during the onboarding process and it’s all in-app purchases and they saw an increase in revenue and an increase in retention so it’s like okay obviously you know that’s a big data point we already know it we kind of felt it but that’s a big data point for me I am gonna add a Banner in the works to that I was looking at the app reviews
recently for flow and flow is a period tracking app and something I’ve seen in the past is when you you kind of spam people with too many payables all the time asking for money all the time um and then like people start to get annoyed and so yes make sure that you’ve asked for their money not just once maybe like three times you know if you ask once they forget sometimes they don’t want to do then you might catch them later some people like oh they didn’t pay that time so I’ll never ask them again that’s a bad thing to do however on the other side like if you
bombard people then they get quite annoyed so the reviews and flow is like I used to love this app it’s really gone downhill too much monetization this is so irritating and I’ve seen that in data too where like retention goes down over time so I think again it’s a balance understand your users make sure that you’re providing enough value so that you can hit them with a paywall every now and then I love it I love it okay yeah don’t in test you know like I think a lot of people get mad when I’m like you’re ruined Steve I’m like well let me get a test like I’m not I thought that was a
given but this this is the calm so I canceled my calm subscription I think I got it I got it for 50 off with Amex some sort of partnership and I’m receiving discounts often so I received four this month a couple last month and what I like about them is like the messaging of are you burnt out for this specific one because I’m like you know working professional working hard like burnouts big worry for a lot of people
um the thing that I don’t like about these is it’s 50 off every single time yeah it’s not getting better you know my my discount’s not getting better over time I saw headspace at one point if you didn’t purchase it was like 10 off next week 20 off next week 30 off so escalating the value of those discounts whereas here I’m kind of getting a bit of you know Banner blindness with calm because in my inbox I always just see last chance for 50 off so I like their messaging I don’t necessarily like the
fact that they haven’t judged it up a bit you know I got my own calm flow as well Rosie here’s here’s mine so we activated trial because I was like look and then this is my old email but he’s like hey you did it and so you can see sort of like their subject lines and when it when I canceled my trial I was like hey here’s another seven days of calm on us and they hit me with the same type of messaging and then they hit me with the 50 offer here after I canceled a trial
and get this when I came back into the app you know they said hey here’s you know they had some in-app messaging as well one more second open after trial they gave me a 31 offer for that about 31 I like that because I was so used to seeing 10 20 30 40 50. if you like spice up and put an odd number in there it makes people it kind of cuts through all of the noise of the discounts if it’s a specific discount
people are thinking oh they’ve actually put some time into thinking how much value this is for me and you know the right discount it’s like a psychological thing where if you use odd numbers um you get people to stop and think a bit more it’s a Walmart thing Walmart’s like always 97 versus 99 so maybe it’s worth testing all right let’s get back I like that your presentation here uh I for victim to these a lot so Bloom and wild is a florist in the UK and they have an
app and I have the app and they send me discounts but they do it better than calm in my view they are so personal like you can see there’s no design in these emails it just looks like text my name is Rosemary you know my birth name is Rosemary but everyone calls me Rosie just ignore that um so just don’t know I’m Gonna Leave right I can see the leadership I can see your facial expression completely changed if
you walking past me in the street and you’re like Rosemary I just wouldn’t turn around anyways what I love about these is that they look personal like they’re from Lucy’s actual account um the copy is so nice they’re so seasonal like peonies are very seasonal in the UK at this time of year it’s like a spring and late spring flower they’re very expensive and very popular and it’s like peony season great amazing um so I love these and I get them so often every time it’s like someone’s
birthday I just type Lucy into my email and I go in and I get my discount and they’re always different discounts it’s either 20 25 15 30 is their biggest one they never give more than like because you know they’re serious about that whereas it’s not just like 50 or 50 or 50 off um and there’s another if you I think the next one oh yeah so I don’t just get them from Lucy I also get them from Aaron and I also get them from Katie so they they they
cut it up they kind of make you read it whereas the calm ones I’m just like that’s just another calm email whereas this one is from yesterday and it’s like we hate waste so take 20 off these flowers and it’s just completely different messaging completely different call to action they’re like hey we’ve got spare flowers like we’d love I don’t even know if they do have spare flowers who knows right um I know this is kind of like it’s treading the line between D to C and mobile app but I really like the app it’s just like super simple um yeah no we we’re doing something
similar with another client I’m like look email marketing has been huge for e-commerce parents for so long don’t ignore it right they only have that we have our app we have Push like but we’re so app Focus that we don’t think about the broad scope with email too is Aaron and what’s this uh Lucy’s are they the same emails are they different emails different different emails okay at Bloom and wild and Aaron apples through people’s emails I don’t know if they’re real people we can check on LinkedIn I
really love this email though if you go back one as well yeah um the one on the right a sensitive I thought this really cut through as well a sensitive occasioning is coming hey in a few weeks time we’re going to start sending emails about Father’s Day if you’d rather not hear about it that’s totally fine let us know here and then they push you back in because one of their big retention features is the calendar and you put everyone’s birthdays in so they tell you push an email hey your granny’s birthday is coming up don’t forget and so they’re trying to push you to update your calendar and I just think it’s really nice because some people don’t have dads
or moms maybe they’ve passed away and maybe they’ll have a good relationship with them so like mothers and Father’s Day you know as a I just think it’s good branding you know they care about me so I love that I like it too okay I’m gonna move on to this one oh look at this I I didn’t think you’re gonna be presenting these so it’s the ugliest slide I’ve ever made oh that’s fine please I would argue with some of the most effective push notifications I’ve ever seen okay
hot take so this is the Premier League app which is the football league in the UK my boyfriend this is a screenshot from his phone and he gets so many of these pushes but they’re all so good so essentially what it is is you buy and sell players and so if there is a match at 8pm on a Friday between two teens at six pm so two hours before that match is the cutoff time for you to exchange and sell and buy players in your app so what they do is they in the morning they send
you a push it’s like hey transfer window it’s coming to a close like this this player is really hot right now this one’s a rising star and then they send you more and more towards that 6 p.m cut off and so they’re super relevant they’re obviously curated which is high right probably takes them a while but they’re so relevant they’re so personalized and it gets you in to the app and these are some stats from online I found that the average US smartphone user receives 46 pushes a day
damn but I don’t mind if they’re personalized yes I agree emojis I like these yeah add emojis the 34 like you know people ask me this all the time so these are great numbers you know I don’t mind these type of slides Rosie because obviously just take a screenshot like right and you guys can do that but personalization all that stuff emojis work and I think timing is so key to a push notification like if
you can almost read the user’s mind almost better in terms of click-through rates but they hear the click-through rate so if you’re not getting anything above five then or if you’re getting anything above five you’re probably doing pretty well yeah I think so and these pushes I maybe they’re a bit small for the screen but they’re like this person’s really hot and sometimes they do like hot as in like a hot Talent um so they don’t um sometimes they don’t give you the name of the player and it’s like oh I want to see the name of the player and then you tap it and you go in and you see it so it’s like very very
effective high frequency but my boyfriend says that they are super interesting so he doesn’t turn them off and he uses them and that’s what his like this stresses me out the number personally the number of pushes there but he loves it so I do the same thing for my fantasy American football and I love them it’s just like it’s so rapid I’m like oh this person got injured oh my God guys in their football no matter what’s more Alan says Steve coming to breakfast in
Vegas no Alan I’m back in the Bay Area I’m sorry I’ve been talking Rosie into coming next year as well and then Miguel’s here what’s up Miguel Luke 's how are you bro I’m good A little tired I’m good what’s up Yash fam is Friday’s with that Masters Rosie just in case you didn’t know and we’re a family so it’s double all right let’s move this is my point about don’t spam so I’ve been in places where you send too many and then every single
extra push that you send reduces how how effective all the others are um that something was an Insight from someone where I worked at um and I think it’s like recently or in the past few years Apple have made it way more easier way more easy to turn them off so you can just go into your home screen you can swipey but like turn these off forever so you do have to be really careful that you don’t because once you you
burn that Channel Once people have turned off your push notifications is so so difficult than to retarget them oh yeah you’re right I didn’t even know how to do that until now yeah okay now I’m going to Notifications push like I hate the badges too I can’t stand easier than ever maybe we should just hide this slide and not tell anyone if no one else is this don’t turn off our push notifications just these guys all right
hey one of the things while we’re on this push notification I think I mentioned this but the you know sending the sub while I want to share this too and I think we’re going to talk okay let’s I’ll jump I’ll let you lead this real quick and then I’m going to jump in and pull another slide to kind of piggyback off this monetization ugly slides can I just say yeah my slides are really nice but no they’re really nice trust they were really nice you gotta check out you know what I’ll do is I’ll link up I’ll ask my team to link up right here so about the 20
minute Mark Rosie’s presentation from APS I highly recommend you guys check it out and you’ll see how beautiful our slides are so I’m gonna link that up okay go ahead Rosie this is second nature an app which is kind of a nutrition um dieting app and it’s really expensive it’s super super expensive to get second nature it’s like um I think it’s like 70 pound for a quarter like very high 30 pound a month type thing um and what I love about their monetization screens is the first time
you see money it’s the screen here so there’s some onboarding screens where it’s a quiz you land on the welcome screen you have a little quiz it’s an amazing quiz because it uses user language like I don’t feel personally like I need one of these apps but I was going through to test it and by the end of that quiz I was like they know me so well and I nearly bought this app and I was just testing it that’s how much I like the quiz because it uses user language but the first time because it’s such a high price point essentially I think my
learning from this is that you don’t necessarily want to give them that high price point like on the screen and like freak them out before you’ve eased them into it and so here it’s like final question are you ready to invest 10 pound a week in your health and that’s a no-brainer of course I’m ready to invest 10 a week in your health includes one I can’t say no though either well you can so you scroll so you scroll is this a scroll yeah yeah okay my phone super interesting yes let’s get started I’m not sure let me try risk free so they’re giving you an option for a trial
or no I’ll use the free version for now and I think in terms of ux writing this ticks and number of boxes because it’s so honest and transparent about the fact that there’s a trial there’s not or you can go for free and like I think a lot of apps try and hide that point but here it really built my trust and I think that’s important when you’ve got a really expensive product and so that’s what I found interesting so they hid the massive number they made it optional and then when I tapped not sure let me try risk free and then the next screen is
this one get private support and they pulled out the most important part of their in my view subscription package which is the fact that you actually get private support from the nutritionist like that is the thing that you know and you then it’s an anchor as well because you’re anchoring the fact that you get something that I think we know is quite extensive it’s a person they have an expertise they they’re going to be with me for 12 months oh my God how much would that cost me if I wasn’t using this app so I think it’s one one it’s pulling out the main benefit of the
subscription and two is an anchor for the price of that thing and so I thought that was super interesting and then this is their freemium experience so if you click no you’re going to the app I think what a lot of apps do as well is if you say no to your upsell screen and say you said no to the discount that you like putting on a screen and then you get into the app and I find a lot of apps just kind of forget to make some visual cues that there is a premium tier and that you’re kind of
missing out here it’s got really big real estate on the home screen learn about premium and then if I try and use things it’s locked and I can see it’s locked and I get this nice little um upgrade screen not just a lot of the time as well I’ve seen apps like when you get into the freemium experience you try some content and you just get hit with the same upsell screen like you’ve already shown people that upsell screen didn’t work like could you make it more contextual could you kind of ease them into a bit more so that’s what I really like about this it’s like real estate
for the premium in the premium and then not the same upsell well not the same intro to the upsell as someone’s already exited I love it there’s a couple things I’ll mention too that I’ll tag on the first I love that there’s lock stuff I think it’s you know like if you a friend of mine is testing he’s got like crossword game testing like law content versus a hard pay wallet which essentially means no X on your paywall so you have to either pay or get out and you seem similar like Revenue numbers with both and so he’s moving towards more of a locked content type of stuff
and then I listened to a podcast on the revenue cat podcast and they were talking about healthy this the CEO he was talking about how Community drives a lot of their premium users and so you can read all the community stuff but it’s like if you want to both guess what you’re gonna have to pay and so I I this sort of reminded me that like hey premium to share your stories with the you can read the stories but if you want to share your own I’m that’s what I’m assuming from this app too you can you can do
that here it’s pretty limited premium experience yeah I think that’s the way to go honestly I think you know I’ve seen higher conversion rates when you have a freemium experience instead of a hard upsell again say that one more time for me I’ve seen High conversion rates when you have a freemium experience I you can exit the upsell screen and people then get into the app whether you lock everything you know or leave one thing that’s to Up For
Debate but I’ve seen higher conversion rates that way then a hard upsell screen where you actually can’t get in if you don’t subscribe you seem higher higher if you don’t do the hard yeah you know I’m probably starting to lean that way too even though we have a hard but we haven’t you know we haven’t messed around with the one of our apps we haven’t messed around with the lock stuff because it’s very minimal content wise it’s just a very interesting feature and so that’s it I
like that I like that it’s different for different obviously test it but um I feel like it’s it’s kind of builds trust it’s like hey we’ll let you in we’ll let you have a little peruse but then yeah yeah no it’s true because they want to see how much content you have especially for like apps that have a lot of content you know oh wow this has a lot of content that I can explore all right so I’m gonna pick on them learn about premium one of my clients you know I was like I don’t know I don’t have enough data to say this but I don’t think learn about pre nobody I mean maybe this might be a
great copy I don’t know but he had just a star that’s all it was it was like up here I was like I don’t know but I’ve seen crowns use all the time and I think crowns are better I was in the UK so like you know crown and then he he’s like funny enough Steve I’m a b testing this right now and he saw that a Yellow Crown now it’s a white background for his app okay but the yellow Crown has the highest and then upgrade text I don’t know what he said in the upgrade text it might just been upgrade right was the one of
the lowest and then upgrade plus a star one of the lowest and so you can see the crown black yeah I love that because I think a lot of apps that I’ve worked for are super super early stage and there’s the there’s the assumption that oh if we change one tiny thing it won’t make a difference but those are big differences it was and they’ve got a pretty decent but they’re not like tiny they’re not tiny but you know it’s not like super big either but yeah I think you know play around with this call to action as
well and I really love that it’s a different paywall in here it’s a little bit more work but I like that experience okay this is a similar point on high priced products so this is better help and better help is 60 pounds a week [Music] I know my eyes are like pop however it’s that it’s therapy so you know it’s very expensive what I love about it is I I got I was also testing
this app I wasn’t planning to use it as an actual user um and I clicked apply for I tapped that apply for financial aid and I got this would you still would you be interested in financial aid and I tapped still not ready and what I loved is then I got to this why don’t you want to do it and these are all the kind of fears and anxieties and uncertainties about someone getting to this paywall and being like I can’t afford it I’m not sure if it’s effective because it’s digital I don’t think I need this right now like I’m just perusing and they’ve
obviously done user research and they’ve obviously uncovered these anxieties because there’ll be people like pausing and you’ll if you do a usability study watch someone go through your paywall be like hey what’s going for your mind right now what would you what would you stop you putting in your car details right now if you can get five users is on your paywall and you are there with them or maybe you’re on a digital one-on-one call with them and they’re screen sharing um and you can get that information of like what’s stopping them and then if you call that out specifically and
that’s what they’ve done and what happens here is if you tap one of those I can’t afford it you get a screen which which kind of gives you a reason here’s it here it is it’s probably a bit too small but on the I’m not sure if this is effective that long text the second screen is there are many studies and it’s kind of talking to you about the how valid like the approach is and name dropped universities like University of California San Francisco like all these like big hospitals and you know medical institutions so they’re kind of calming
that anxiety for you like pushing you towards the purchase that’s a really cool one and now if you if you typed uh if you tapped I don’t feel like I need this at the moment you get to that third screen there we understand this process maybe new and difficult for you try here’s a trial because you don’t get a trial anywhere else so their trial is super hidden for the unsure users and I thought that was really sneaky good and then I don’t feel the okay and then what happens here just closes
I don’t know that I don’t feel like this that’s the trial oh okay I RIS and then the effectiveness and I can’t afford it it’s probably not it goes to your um Financial eligibility and I I tapped all of all of those I went through it I got 10 off um that was automatically applied on the paywall I love it this is good stuff I love it and I won High effort I mean if you have an app that was like five pounds a month
you know is it worth doing a whole flow of maybe maybe not if you’ve got a product that’s 60 pounds a week people are going to have some big hesitations about that yeah look Rosie I love this slide this is Rosie slide I literally just copied everything I gave you a shout out okay I don’t just like here I thought of this no no improved monetization has Forex impact on growth compared to acquisition and I completely agree like especially in the beginning if you’re let’s just say make up a number Rosie like five under 5K a month or maybe 10K a month
you really want to focus on monetization as long as you get some decent downloads you want to focus on monetization because you know cash flow is the life of your business and so you’re a business you’re not a hobbyist you got to make that money and then you can get into once you hit a certain point you can get into these more interesting what’s a high LTV how do we engage our users how do we get viral maybe we want free users because they turn you know they will promote the app and get more users into the app and you can think about all these more advanced creative
strategies too that’s just my opinion though so feel free to disagree rosie no no I disagree I’ve seen when I’ve tried to forecast out like let’s what would happen if we moved price what would happen if we moved conversion ring what would happen if we like you know brought in more users top of funnel and when you kind of model them out if you kind of move the monetization ones just a little bit you see massive increases versus just like putting more people in the top you should ideally work out where you’re doing worse across your whole funnel and
then focus on that that’s the best way forward but that that study was let’s look at initiatives across acquisition and monetization and they the study actually looked at retention too and it was like how can you impact growth where’s the biggest place to focus and they found that the Prof the projects that focus on monetization had Forex the impact of the projects that worked in the acquisition on growth so big one and there’s a podcast I got that from it was one of Lenny’s podcasts with Naomi
ionita she’s a VC and she had she originally found that stat um very good podcast on translation too I love it all right Rosie let’s get into the app audit section of our show and before we do that we like to start off every app audit with some dad jokes [Music] Rosie what do you think we should play for you know if you lose I buy your shirt that says
Rosemary oh my God you have to worry for a day you buy me a ticket to Mau next year okay it’s pretty expensive how about a big dinner [Laughter] okay all right you want to go first you want me to go first you go first okay I go first all right guys so we’re gonna play for some high stakes here so make sure
you vote here all right Rosie let me get my ready to go all right here we go Rosie if I’m reading their lips correctly my neighbors are arguing about some creepy guy next door I don’t know okay uh why do seagulls fly over the ocean why because if they flew over the bay we’d call them Bagels
you gotta have a question those are the better ones I can’t just like be all right so for R if you thought Rosie’s better where joke was better and then put s if you thought my joke was better and then we’ll play for dinner at Mau Vegas next year and if you want us to take a look at your app on a future live stream all you got to do is go to appmasters.com audit and see we’ve seen some really good results people email me like six months later Rosie they’re like Steve thank you that was amazing like I did some of those suggestions and we’ve gotten the so I get all the credit Rosie
so I’m sorry whether you said or I said it let’s take a look at the this week’s app hold on one second I’m gonna pull it up okay here we go I mean it’s one thing knowing what to do well one thing to do a test and it’s another thing actually running it so well done to the people who exactly the tests I did say I was like yo why did you what took you so long he’s like oh yeah I got stuff to do so Ezekiel says uh let
me pull up his app right here he’s like all right would you say the app is intuitive or not thank you so much for reviewing it and awesome pod thank you uh for that okay well anything on the the screenshot stuff that you want to talk about Rosie so it helps you stop biting your nails essentially uh yeah can can you tell that from the title and I mean it’s it’s very does what it says on the tin I feel slightly
grossed out first time I saw it I was like huh so maybe but I don’t know whether like what’s the desired outcome it’s like great hands so maybe that could be an opportunity some really nice looking fingers on there you know what that’s a great idea I I agree with you I feel a little bit grossed out too I think you want to show nice nails not like and then what I would also do is we found pretty good success with this Rosie is whatever your main tagline is and even
from an ASO perspective if people are searching for you know stop biting nails if that is the case put that don’t put track your progress just put stop biting your nails it’s the thing that people are searching for it’s a thing that you built your entire app around and so I love what Rosie said put nice nails don’t put ugly ass Nails I don’t know it might work I don’t know but I just it is pretty gross that I don’t know but I do know that if you put the keywords that you are trying to rank for and it is
your main proposition anyway it did increase conversions for one of our clients we did just that like their main keyword we put it into their main screenshot so let’s just think like uh what’s a good one like green noise right like we put the Greenways app to help you sleep better we saw better results than like clothes you know feel feel better relax anxiety All That Jazz yeah I like the phrase break the Habit that cut I wonder if like an image
like actually the instead of just the nails it’s like the action of doing it as well like you want to break that habit maybe some more imagery around like breaking habits and stuff yeah Okay so to the app interesting I feel like I don’t really understand how what it is at the moment I feel like this this feels premature
like I don’t know personally of the people I know who by their nails and people close to me the only solution I know is nail biting um you know the the nail polish stuff and now watch it’s very bitter so I feel like some messaging around like have you I imagine you’ve already tried all these things this is this is why these don’t work this is what you how an app’s going to help you do that because just it’s quite jarring just seeing the upsell screen in my view no it’s it’s true so
like we have this case study right here that that’s why I was kind of pulling this up so this was in my normal monetization strategies so Ezekiel you haven’t been following every single video just just kidding so here’s one of our clients you do the same exact thing he he just showed the paywall right on right on App open and then he added sorry these onboarding screens these three and he saw a 234 increase in conversions so just I didn’t think I
needed this slide because I thought it was just very intuitive they should always have an onboard experience do you want to do that Ezekiel just add you know like it’s kind of like what you have in your screenshots like regurgitate what the app is remind people what they’re here for tell them all the benefits proven model to bite nails blah blah blah blah and then hit them with the paywall I’ve done this exact test ABC test the a was like really rules at the end the B was like move the
paywall to the kind of the welcome screen right after the welcome screen and the C was oh let’s just do a Carousel and normally I’m saying I think Carousel is a relatively lazy as a way to like communicate what a product does like it’s better to show rather than tell however the C version had three Carousel slides and then the upsell and that one installed to trial on the a was like 0.5 it was really low on the B it was like seven percent and on the C it was like 14 it was wow really I hate
carousels wait is carousels like so do you see get free trial all the time or do you and then you know it’s the same button or is it kind of like this like three different screens or is it one screen where I can move which means no it’s more it’s kind of a product design thing where if you’re in terms of how well is someone going to understand you the the gold standard is they do it themselves they you learn through doing so if they’ve got some point onboarding where
you actually do the first Magic Moment the action um and then the the next down is like if you tell someone some of it’s going to go in uh and then another one’s like reading people don’t really read stuff so I think it’s just a case of people often don’t read carousels um and the best way for someone to understand what your app does is to like show them through doing like allow them to do the thing um but sometimes that’s quite High friction so Carousel is just like yeah okay so Carousel is like one page and then there’s like a bunch of images that
I can slide through yeah okay yeah love it all right yeah so do that you’ll be fine uh thank you for making the x so visible kind of into like tough on most on this screen it’s so big it’s so like stylized I’m like oh I want tap yeah I told we’ll have data on this but like I told
the client just that I was like dude and they’ve got like massive amounts of data and mass amounts of download so I was like let’s see what happens it’s so prominent like it just pops and right now it just pops I might do see the blue and the white that that’s where my eye really goes to but then the x is pretty visible as well all right let’s hit X and see what happens so it looks like we just track it track your progress take a picture should I take a picture of my nails no I’m
I’m sure what to do like for me right now photo yes action yeah I can just go to camera but here my fancy soundboard oh wow yeah this is where this stuff is coming from his Like This Is The Moment of Truth dude oh geez there’s a lot of dust let’s get out of that uh let’s you
do this again what is this five minutes I don’t get what this five minutes is no I’m not quite sure if so if we’ve been on the app for five minutes and then there’s oh okay so I think the I kind of maybe that sort of a timer for maybe how long you haven’t bit your nails for yeah it’s going up I guess I mean you could you okay so I reset it okay yeah you could use some teaching Ezekiel I had no idea what was
going on right here I would say you get in ideally that Carousel has told you a little bit about like why you should use an app for nail biting like people who use the app are like 10 times more likely to like grow nails within a month compared to nail polish great cool get in what’s the first thing I should do like take a photo is that the main thing or do you want me to restart the timer well like what’s the steps there’s probably like three steps that the user
can take that you could probably list out as a little bit of a nudge you know what we’ve seen in our pull-up splice right now but we’ve seen is getting users kind of like what you said with the carousel getting users to engage with your app before you ask them to buy increases conversions and so here’s what splice does this is the and changed a bit but like you know what’s your video editing experience what brings you the supplies and Rosie before I even knew that this worked when I saw this I was like oh are they going to personalize you know the video editor
based off what I say so I just sort of thought that but it could be like you know start timer how long have you been like let’s start your nail biting ending nail biting Journey now and you hit start timer and then it hits it yeah then you go cool right yeah yeah take a picture of this thing cool then hit him with the paywall now let’s really start tracking let’s see how long you can go before that so that’s what I was talking about around doing is better than telling so that’s that would be a really
cool test one test is like Carousel before you payable and then another test would be the steps that people need to take to get value out of the app the little magic moments I imagine that left hand right hand took me a hot second maybe I left an l and an R would be good on those like yeah oh looks like I can only do I don’t mind that I don’t mind this but yeah an onboarding where it’s like start timer like when’s the last time you bit you know have you been start the timer take a picture of a glass hand okay great next step is
and then I like to be aggressive with the paywall I know you know take it with a grain of salt like meaning just you have to test yourself if I had to randomly pick I would say show paywall on every app open it’s just you don’t annoy them but like you’ll you will have diminishing results but at the same time like definitely do it on second or third open just not a lot of people come back the second time yeah so they are coming back the second time they like you enough so at least do
it on second open whether you want to do it on third or fourth or fifth and so forth that’s up to you but I think definitely almost like an open can you open the paywall again sure just have to type on the right so I feel like to me this screams I’m gonna tell you about my product it’s a nail Keeper Pro whereas I think some copy that you could test would be what are people going to get out of this yeah finally stop biting have presentable nails for school College University job work like what
maybe that’s a question in the onboarding it’s like why do you like where you are like why do you want to stop buying things like look more presentable be able to wear nail polish to notice but I feel like there’s some research you could do with why are people here what do they want to achieve okay put that big value proposition on your paywall like stop biting your nails within a month super compelling as opposed to hey nail Keeper Pro like realistically no one cares about now they care about like improving their
nail length yeah and you I mean I would lead into like I don’t know maybe this is too strong but try it out I agree with you so finally stop biting your nails and you just feel like it’s gross like it’s really you know what I mean yeah yeah so what are the emotions yeah more emotions you’re like yeah you’re right it is gross yeah never feel ashamed of your nails again never try to hide them on your bare glass again you know when I I just
like seeing people do it too so like that’s why I was like stop doing it please yeah it’s making me it’s making me touch my nails I’m gonna start I’m gonna put my hands down here yeah so I’ve got this weird light it’s the evening here in the UK and there’s obviously the sun shining and I’ve got this like diaper is on my head be careful right Joe says fully agree with Rosie great points all right well Rosie shifts here I’ll give you some time I’ll tally up the scores Romaine says R
for the dad joke around Eric R I know it thank you if I said that right Brad how dare you [ __ ] Rosie and then so you was pretty much a full sweep bro can we do another round of course we’re doing another round all right let’s get into the next round shall I go first um I will go first this time
all right what do you call a fish wearing a bow tie what sophisticated okay our dinner’s on me I guess it’s sad all right but I’m gonna go through with it all right I’m gonna give him my all Rosie my wife’s leaving me because she thinks I’m obsessed with astronomy what planet is she on I like this message I haven’t heard that one I haven’t heard the bagels one but oh
thank you it’s fine I have to be a good sport one guy I was like oh he just answered I’m like bro you’re not supposed to answer it okay I think we’ve done this app before but I don’t know you snuck in again we got to do a better job of like removing duplicates okay need to increase online downloads can you check ASO score okay I can do all your work but let’s take a quick peek uh please improve my app for me thank
you well they think they’re doing pretty well they got 10 million downloads so you’re doing pretty well there yeah I think you know personally I can kick it off what we found is one couple of things if this is a fashion app then maybe instead of your brand put fashion we have seen that do pretty well especially on the Google Play side where all the search results are you know it’s primarily icon right and instead of putting online shopping you might want to go it seems like it’s more of a
fashion app I could be wrong but you might just want to lean in on the fashion side of things versus the online shopping which is super super generic so does anyone say I do online shopping does anyone type online shopping in I don’t think so I think it’s like dating where the brand is like has higher traffic like Tinder Bumble hinge they all have higher traffic than like online shopping but we can take a peek and I can pull all the data right now
anything you want to add I have seen some massive results by changing simple things on the icon because it’s just so much real estate and like realistically a lot of people don’t even tap in so it’s like the first kind of reaction they have to your your app will be the icon and like as as a founder or as someone who’s built the app you you love the you know the company logo but it doesn’t say a lot to
other people I think like the two circles with the thing on top doesn’t really say anything about online shopping to me so I’d use that real estate to communicate a bit better about what it is it could be a picture of like some clothes or it could be I’d really really test different things on the icon like gaming apps for example I’ve seen the icons for gaming apps it’s literally a mini game in there this they use it so well so I think it’s a little bit of a missed opportunity to just use your logo but I’ve also seen I did a test once where we had an app logo and it was like
a dark red and there was an app to help you improve part of your life and it was kind of like a soft gentle app and I changed the color to like a really subtle purple it was one of the brown colors but it was like a really subtle color because I did some user research and found that people found kind of the bright colors a bit like confrontational whereas it wasn’t that it was meant to be like really lovely the Browning was really lovely so I was like I don’t think this is going to do anything I’m just changing the color of the icon I’m sure it’s not going to do anything was what I thought
40 increase in conversion rate from just changing the background of the the icon from like a dark bright color to a like a soft gentle color it’s nuts I love it was that on iOS or Google play uh the the Google Play because of the a b testing was a bit easier it was quite a while ago across IOS as well I got some data for you um so it looks like a lot of the Branded ones are higher than shopping obviously these are
huge massive Brands teamu shin chime AliExpress Sephora and then shopping not bad though 54 search traffic so people are searching for shopping but you know like if you’re specifically a you know hoodies shirt fashion brand I would just lean in on the fashion versus in my opinion because I searched for shopping on iOS store and it’s Xi’an that’s number one and then you’re probably never gonna beat these guys because they’re just doing massive amounts of UA that I just maybe because
they all have shopping in their titles you want to go after close or fashion something that’s a little bit different that you feel like you can actually rank better for and then your developer name I know you’re using keywords you can develop a name swap it you know you don’t have to swap it here if you want your brand as the first one but swap it on the developer name should help out we know it helps out on the title side of things but if you don’t want to do that here because you’re you know pretty big
band I’m assuming just from the downloads perspective yeah well done that’s a really good job and then one of the other things I would like to do is I like to personally add video here you can see this which Ian because on the video side of things Rosie what we found is if you optimize you know I’ve got a YouTube stuff present if you optimize your YouTube YouTube has keywords and in those keywords you can put like some of your competitors so Shan you know all
that stuff it’s kind of like the on the iOS you got like a keyword field where you’re giving yourself a keyword field within Google Play by having your tags your video tags have the keywords that you want to Target and some of your competitors so that you can start hacking this similar app section which is Google Play Explorer and getting you more downloads there so look at these hacks with Steve yeah that’s it okay I like that you’re you’re impressed
by that oh I don’t have a I don’t have a I don’t have a good it’s not easily there thanks Rosie thank you the audience is going crazy I love it all right Rosie I think we might have a tie we only got three votes the second round people are going to sleep or going away so it’s 2-1 I’ll ask for any more votes but nothing else came in so we’re gonna have to go to sudden death all right are you ready for this I like that one I thought you won but I
got one more if you’re ready for it too you have one more I’ve got a really good one oh oh okay hit me what did one wall say to the other what what I’ll meet you at the corner okay Rosie a lot of girlfriend and wife jokes that I have my my girlfriend is leaving me because she can’t stand the herbs I’ve been using in the kitchen bay leaves
but our I don’t know how many people are alive but RMV that Rosie’s better put as you thought my joke was better about a huge thing on the line with dinner at Mau 2024 all right now check out if you want to learn more we don’t have time to do this so we’ll have Rosie back but I love this user interviews one of my client Rosie he’s going through where we’re seeing pretty decent like 11 trial activations but horrible like trial to
paid and then he wants to do user feedback and I’m like maybe they don’t understand the app now I’ve always felt like install the trial activation is more of a marketing problem you know like hey you’re onboarding your paywall messaging and then the trial the paid is more of a product problem maybe you got to fix the product that’s a high ability like what do you think on how would you process this I if people aren’t converting on the trial there could be a number of options it could be that they’re not the right person for the product in which case it’s like a
traffic are you getting the right traffic in maybe they just like started the trial just to try out but realistically then we’re never going to do it or it’s it could be a product like a fit problem where you just don’t have the the thing like any of the features in order to help them Reach their goal so it could be like a core product problem it could be a traffic problem um some people just accidentally start a trial they have no idea what’s going on so I think if you look at all here’s all the uses that start a trial there’s going to be a good proportion who did it by accident and don’t really know what they’re getting into there’s going to be
a proportion that we’re never going to convert anyway and those are going to be really hard to get off and then there’s the people who are on the fence and that’s like when you need to kind of convert them and so like we were talking about with the nail biting app signposting your core functionality is like get people to the magic moment if it’s a period tracking app you need them to like track their first period if it’s nail biting app you need them to take that first photo and then that’s what’s as well where push comes into like get
the second photo third photo full photo make sure that people get the value not just the first time but also the second third time so yeah there’s a lot of different reasons why people don’t convert on the trial um I think a lot of them are the same across apps but user research can help uncover the other reasons yeah and she breaks it all down 20 you know the main things they got were double the distill distillation like after you’ve talked to your user you really have to double the time that you spent with them to make sure and
then you know a couple things keep it at 20. Rosie what I found is when I set 15-minute meetings with like you know potential clients they stick to 15 minutes when I said at 20 they’re like going over all the stinking time so many people when I had just for things like Steve I know we only have 15 minutes and I was like I’ve really baked in 30. every time but it’s it’s funny but yeah bake yourself in because if you’re not talking the right user you might just want to get out in that call anyways right it’s quite hard to find people if you’re trying to get user interviews for people who are
have churned but like why didn’t they if the research question is like what might be the reasons why people don’t um convert on their trial it’s quite hard to get people to cancel because they don’t really want to speak to you so I think just trying to get a range of users um who’ve started a trial like in the moment where they’re like you know a bit more excited about the fact that they’re in your app that’s a good time to maybe you know pop up and say hey we’d love to speak to you sometimes you can position it as like office hours for the CEO the founder would love to speak
to you like you can have a bespoke onboarding like there’s ways you can position it to get people to talk to you and you can do that it’s pop up in the app but use something like one signal to send a hey we’d love to chat or if you don’t want to get in the wave and them getting to the Magic Moment which is also a good idea you send an email you could do it by by push but it’s quite hard to speak to people who are going to churn because they’re going to churn and they don’t care so much so if you just try and get a range of users and get a high volume of user interviews and then you can cut out the ones that aren’t
useful and only listen to the ones that are useful yeah you know what I just thought about Rosie when you were talking was if people have activated a trial they maybe just put in a little pop-up like what are you here like office hours with the CEO thank you for you know investing in your growth like can we help you something like that maybe right after they activate a trial yeah what are you here for like can we help with anything and just asking them because they might feel like oh wow this person really cares especially since you just activated a trial
um that’s why I’m gonna ask tell them to do actually I was like you know what this is what we should do because all the other things are kind of hard to build so I was like you know what they activate try I’ll just put a little pop-up like maybe a type form that just says hey what are you here for can we you know help you can we arrange a call like here’s a little calendar calendar linked so that we can get on a quick call and just let me learn from you I don’t know that’s worked for me in the past with the office hours make sure you follow up with them beforehand because they can think it’s like a off hand and then completely forget to join the call and then your CEO is on the call just like
um get you get stood up quite a lot so because they’re quite low you make it sound really like fun people can sometimes forget to go so just follow up before and be like hey reminder for your call that’s a good one I love it anything else you want to add on the user just do it often because you know if you don’t do user research very often and then you find yourself on a call with someone who maybe isn’t the Right audience you can kind of get a bit annoyed because you’re like ah this it was so hard to get this user to talk to
me I’m annoyed because they’re the wrong person I’m not going to have enough user research to like make a good sample like five or something say you only get five a year or something but if you only talk to five users every six months and two of them happen to not be the Right audience you find on the call um it can be a bit annoying because you’re like oh it took me so long to get these people and talk to them so I would say do it often aim for speaking to two users every week um and dealing with a goal like set yourself a goal like I want to learn about why people are canceling I want to
learn about their fears and anxieties on the upsell screen I want to learn about what they think about artificial notification so set yourself like some a reason you’re doing the research and try and speak to people regularly so that when you have a dad every now and then it’s not so bad because you’re doing them so often and you’ve kind of you’ve built it into your success uh I love it all right Rosie’s medium is linked up into your favorite description whether media description podcast app or YouTube description as well go reach out to her as well as her LinkedIn is there
she’s doing some consultancy right now with a couple of different clients so if you need help with the the product lead growth side of things she’s going to really analyze take a look at the entire life cycle marketing helping the CRM paywall optimization onboarding and all that jazz it is Rosie hog okay I had to really slow it down that’s horrible and dinner’s on me Rosie you just gotta come out I can’t believe that all right yeah
that’s why you’re in advance the flight out from London to Vegas maybe what is that that is an expensive dad or a joke all right I do want to thank my sponsors airbridge I promise them I wear their shirt they gave me this shirt at Mau if you’re looking for an MMP go check them out airbridge.io and purchasly we all did a workshop together purchased if you’re looking for a paywall builder an A B test on the Fly purchasely.com really got to hang out
with all both companies at Mau Vegas and I’m really giving Rosie some fomo hopefully on that I really wanted to win I might just get you that shirt anyway so you can burn it what’s your boyfriend’s size maybe he’ll wear it for me XL he was baggy stuff all right perfect I’ll look out for it in the post My Rosemary shirt all right well I’m back again so thank you Alan for taking over last week when we were at the workshop but next week we’re going to talk to
Lana who was at our workshop last week and she was like Steve let’s do a video about micro transactions and upsells like Lana I love that topic let’s do it so she’s going to come on next Friday speaking on the entire monetization scheme so I’ll be here for the next few weeks and then we’re taking a break and we’ll have a guess as well but every Friday 9 A.M Pacific this is the channel to be at Rosie thank you so much for coming on doing this thank you for having me Steve it’s been awesome and thank you to everyone who voted for my dad jokes do you want one more before we
go let’s do it I love it you got four oh my God okay what do you call a factory that makes okay products what a satisfactory yeah you are you’re over prepared I love it all right guys thank you guys for joining I will see you guys next Friday and every Friday have a great weekend I know it’s a holiday in the UK and a holiday for us in the states as well so have a great weekend see you next Friday
bye