| Source | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WESZA_fj_A |
|---|---|
| Readwise URL | https://read.readwise.io/read/01kv42z0wffmq5h4hs7jn1226b |
| Readwise ID | 01kv42z0wffmq5h4hs7jn1226b |
| Date | 2025-10-31 |
| Author | App Masters |
| Category | video |
| Cover image | https://i.ytimg.com/vi/0WESZA_fj_A/sddefault.jpg?v=69012db5 |
[music] [music] What is up app nation? It is Steve P. young founder of appmasters.com, the place you go when you want actionpacked content related to helping you grow your app downloads and more importantly and the topic of today’s video is your monetization. We’ve got an expert and
I’ve seen her at Revenue Cat and I’ve followed some of the blogs she’s written on Revenue Cat along with her substack and super excited to bring her on. So without further ado, let’s bring in Daphne Titan. Deafany, welcome to the show. >> Hi, thanks for having me. >> Well, I want to give you a proper intro. She is a growth consultant, author, and former head of growth at Heights, where
she helped 10x their subscriber base in just under 18 months. And Dafany reveals what’s really driving some of the app growth. And Deafany, I love talking about monetization because I think out of this it’s the it’s one of these videos where literally after watching this video, you will almost instantly see results whereas, you know, you give tips on other strategies and just sometimes it takes a little bit to go. >> Yeah. No, definitely. And I think also like people get so caught up on the
acquisition side and I know that’s important and you’re a great person to go to for those tips as well. Um, but I think that a lot of people leave the monetization part on the table. So, whenever I’m doing growth audits of apps, one of the most important things that comes out of it is opportunities around monetization. So, I think it’s an overlooked area and it’s also an exciting area this year and lots of lots has been happening. >> Absolutely. And I am in a Halloween costume. So, I would love for you guys to guess who you think I am right now. I
want to say hi to John. Kevin is here. Happy Halloween, Kevin. I got your email. Happy Halloween back to you, my friend. Joe is here and Miguel, happy Halloween as well. All right, Daffany, let’s get into the slides. I’m gonna load this up a little bit. I love me some slides. So, I’m gonna let you take it away and I’ll jump in. >> Yeah, perfect. So, we already gave it a bit away. We’re going to be talking about monetization and specifically about five trends you can’t ignore. Um,
and I think this is like a good place to kind of start and I’d be curious also to hear what the audience has to say and what your opinion in this is is like if you had to ship one monetization test tomorrow, what would it be? >> I got one. >> Okay. >> You want to go first? >> Sure. I mean, one of the things that we are testing is I don’t know how much I want to give away because Apple is starting to, you know, really pay attention, but I would probably test a hard pay wall. And that’s one of the first things I would be testing it. We
have seen a lot of people from our podcast really talk about especially when they’re running UA how hard payw wall really signals faster to meta. And so there’s a little hint for you about what I’ll be testing on our end. >> Nice. Anyone from the audience have any ones or should I go? >> They are on a bit of a delay so we’ll we’ll have to give them some time. >> We’ll go in the meantime. So I think like if I had to ship it tomorrow, I think I would also go and focus on the
pay wall, but I would really look at payw wall position. So seeing like when is the pay wall coming in the onboarding because I think a lot of people um either put it way too late and if you look at like install to pay wall uh view rate, it’s way too low or they put it too early when they haven’t actually brought across the value of it. And so I’ve seen really great results with just actually seeing really consciously where to place it and what to show in front of it to get people to the point that they’re actually then willing to pay. So
that would be my like quick one that I could ship tomorrow um quite easily. >> Love it. >> Cool. I’d say feel free to share if there’s any other ones that you guys think and then we’ll dive into the trends. So I just want to give credit where credit is due. This is inspired by an article. Steve read this article and was like, “We have to talk more about this um because there’s so much in this uh to unpack.” And it was an article that covered the five trends. And as
part of the research for it, I didn’t just want to cover which trends I thought was interesting. Uh but I basically went and um messaged 11 different experts in the space and asked them all separately like what did they see happening already and what were they expecting in the hope to also not bias them at all in terms of it. I know it’s officially a small sample size if we talk about AB testing, but given some of the names on there, I do feel we got a huge amount of insights out of that. And
I put that all together to really see which ones were the most common ones and which ones were the ones that across the experts people really felt would make a biggest difference. So that’s what really inspired these uh trends. And so I just want to give credit where credit due even if I’m presenting them, they’re definitely based on a lot of also their opinions as well. Well, definitely we got Miguel said his first test would be payw wall with the short trial maybe. Cool. >> What are your thoughts on that? >> Um, so it’s such an annoying thing of it depends on like what are you testing
against? So I would be wondering like what are you doing before that? What are you seeing happening? Like if you’re doing a hard pay wall and you’re seeing that there’s like a low low conversion rate. I know you’re a fan of a hard pay wall. Sorry. But if you are seeing like, you know, you’ve got a hard pay wall and you aren’t getting a good conversion rate, adding in a trial could be a way to kind of help with that. Um, then it could be an interesting one for sure. I think when it comes to trials, I often only see that they end up being successful if there’s actually really
thought in everything around it to support it and not just the communications of the trial on the pay wall. I do think you need to then be really conscious of like what are you going to be doing in that trial to get them to the point of actually using your app for it to actually have value because otherwise it won’t solve a problem if you have an activation issue. >> Yeah, that’s perfect. If you guys want to follow more along this Whoops. So, let me add the right one. Let me do this real quick. I wanted to plug Daffany Substack. It is growthways growthwaves.ssubstack.com.
and all of her info is linked up in your favorite podcast app or your YouTube video as well. All right, Daffany, back to you. >> Cool. So, if we look at monetization in 2025 and also I think what we can expect for the beginning of 2026, I think 2024 was a bit more of a survival year. There was a lot going on economywise and things were a lot tougher for a lot of startups especially, but I feel like 2025 is really about sophistication. So, we’re seeing pricing, packaging, payment
flows, like lots being reinvented and people getting a lot more creative. And so, I really do believe this that the winners won’t set and forget. They’re going to constantly testing and adapting and evolving. And I think, like I said, like monetization, it often gets fought about in the beginning and then you kind of move on to other areas and get very focused on the acquisition side and maybe a bit activation, but it shouldn’t be something you set and forget. you are going to be revisiting it over time and with each stage it becomes more and more interesting to see what you optimize and
how you optimize it. So the first trend which um was mentioned by a few people was premium pricing is the new norm. So I think we’ve always seen with apps that it has felt like there’s a little bit of a ceiling as to what you can charge because of people’s expectation of what you pay for an app. And what we’re seeing now is that that middle ground is kind of disappearing a bit more. And like apps are either going high-end or cheap. So if you’re going cheap, it’s because you’ve got a massive audience.
You’ve got a really big reach, really big use case, and you’re going for affordability over everything else. Versus with the premium side, it’s really more like you are the best of the best for something. You’ve got maybe a smaller niche, and so you’re really optimizing for value there. And we’re also seeing also based on the state of subscription app report that annual plans have actually creeped up uh by 5% in terms of um what they’re charging on the higher end. So kind of like the middle ground is still a bit similar but it’s more like the higher end is rising
and so users are willing to pay more when there’s value and brand strength. I also think it’s worth noting the fact that we’ve got more more web funnels is playing a role in this too because people are used to paying a bit more on the web versus in app. And a great example of this is Tony Robbins. I couldn’t believe it when I saw it. This was an example from Leia that they charge $99 per month for the app. >> Yeah. And it’s just basically an AI version of Tony Robbins that you can chat with and will coach you.
Oh my god, that’s crazy. >> You get >> I didn’t know he had an AI app. There’s a Tony Robbins AI. >> So yeah, I think with this when it comes to testing more premium pricing, I will always give the caveat because some people are like just increase the price and it will go well. I think there’s high price, high expectations. So the higher your price, the more people expect from your app. So I saw this with Pelaton who recently increased the price for me from £39 to £45. And already felt it was quite expensive at the time, but
was like it’s useful. or I’ve got a bike in my at home. It’s worth it. But then I really started re-questing, do I consider this is worth it for me? I do think like if you’re delivering that value up front, you can definitely do it and really focus first on that and the strong retention. Um and then from there, you really need to be stronger at communicating about it, how you communicate that value, optimizing your onboarding pays first and not just looking at basically what is the conversion rate because the conversion rate will go down a bit more. I mean,
you got converting to paid. Uh, but you really want to look at like what is then your the revenue you’re actually gaining with it, what percentage you’re going on maybe that higher plan and also what is a refund rate because that might creep up slightly too. Um, so yeah, what about you? Have you tested this before? Caps and what did they do to implement this successfully? >> Yeah, definitely. We I had a a friend of mine, he at the time was running Miracle Morning and they tested a higher pricing. I think they were charging the calm pricing with $60 a year and because
of the brand equity it was based off a book from Hal Lrod where he was talking about the miracle morning and they took that book and the philosophies in the book and took it into an app and by increasing the price slowly. Yes, there were lower conversion rates like people buying less people buying but still not low enough where you ended up making more money anyways. But where have you seen this kind of work better versus like not as all not at all? Because I have tested with other clients where we’ve tried increasing the price and it
just didn’t move and maybe it was too low because we went from like 20 to 30. Do you suggest going from like 20 to, you know, like 2xing it when you’re trying to go premium pricing? Um, so I would be really conscious if you are charging an app of doing that because basically there’s the regulations around like how much of a price increase you can do without having to like basically reopt everyone in. I think it’s about 50% if I’m not mistaken. So I would be conscious with that of going too much
too soon. I am actually more in the front of doing it step by step. where I’ve seen it being done really well is when you’ve added certain really high value added features prior to the price increase because then you can really justify that difference of like why have you increased the price and what’s the value. So with the Pelaton example, when they first increased their prices, they did this incredible table where they showed how many more workouts have they added, how many more languages, how many more options have they added. And so it
was really clear to the user what I started paying for and what I’m paying for now is completely different. And there’s been recent things I remember that add a lot of value. But if we then compare it to their current price increase, yes, they did highlight, hey, we’ve got more workouts, but at a certain point, 10,000 versus 20,000 workouts, it doesn’t have the same value for a user. And where they were then pointing out, we’ve added the breath work app. I was like, what breath work app? I’ve never seen the breath work app. I did I first I wasn’t even sure,
oh, is this a separate app? Is this in the app? Like they had and maybe they did it and I just missed it. Given that I was using it like three, four times a week at the time, I found it really strange that no none of the instructors in the latest videos because I often watched the newest uh did the newest workouts. Not just watched, I promise I did the workouts, too. Um and also like would often like, you know, be in the app choosing a workout. There was no popup, no nothing as far as I could see where it was like, “Hey, we’ve got this new feature.” >> So for me, it felt like it was more of a
shock than anything because I was like, I didn’t know that I was going to be getting this. And retrospectively, I tested that app and I was like, “Oh, this is actually really cool.” But >> if I’d known that beforehand and tested and was using the app, I wouldn’t have minded the price increase as much because I would have been like, “Oh, now I’ve got two really cool apps for this, you know, slightly more than what I would have paid for the old one.” So, I see this being successfully done when a lot of features or added value has been added in and when retention is really strong. It’s not a stick on bad retention. I think that’s why Disney and
Netflix gets away with their price increase. They’re adding new content. They know their retention numbers are good. >> Right. Right. Yeah. I’m a heavy Pelaton user, but I use the app and so yeah, like it’s I’ve got the app on my phone. Everything, even my dog walks, Stephanie, are tracked. I’m just like, I want credit. >> Oh, wow. That That’s real dedication. I’m not that far yet. [laughter] >> I just want the credit. >> That’s [snorts] fair. That’s fair. Um, so should we move on to trend two? >> Yeah, let’s do it. >> Um, so pricing and packaging is getting
smarter. So, I hinted at this before a little bit, but I think flexibility really wins. And if we talk about those higher prices, I think these two can be quite nicely combined where rather than having a one-sizefits-all, um, having more dynamic tiers and like regional prices, discounts, even pause options for people doing payments through the web is becoming more popular. Just making sure that people actually feel like they’re in control and they have a choice. Again, back to that Palaton example, there was no option in that email where it was like,
well, if you don’t want that, don’t worry. You can still have this price or you can switch to this plan. It was really kind of like this is what’s happening. Doesn’t matter that you’re a subscriber. It doesn’t matter like that you’ve been with us for a while. You get the new price just like everyone else. And I think a great example of this is also class pass um where they basically have gone from only doing fitness but to actually bundling different things in there and having this one offering for all where you can use these credits for all these different things >> to actually add more value for different groups. And I think it was Alice uh who
contributed to the article and we also did um a live session about this at uh revenue abroan was uh the one to also mention that for example in um Berlin where she lives where co-working is really more uh popular that’s really like more present for that audience because they know that’s something that they value. So it’s really about seeing like well how can you adjust things according to who your customer is and also keeping in mind you know of course rules around
like discrimination. I’m not saying discriminate in any way but you can use context. So we can use country or region. I there’s also an interesting example of even like using device and battery life. If your if they see your battery is almost dead hit them with like an offer they can’t refuse. um number of sessions they’ve been on their persona based on the audience. And for this I gave an I’ve got an example from Headspace where I’ve indicated sleep is important to me. That whole payw wall is optimized on sleep.
Yeah, I’ve definitely seen this work pretty well. We had an old This was like years ago like 2020 2019 where based off of what you answered on the onboarding the payw wall would personalize it to whatever you answered. Yeah, I think a lot of apps don’t do this well enough as a factor as a whole. I don’t think this just improves like in terms of like using that to adjust the offering, but also for example, a lot of apps have quite long onboarding, but they’re not
feeding back what they’re doing to take that information. >> So, when you then get what they say is a personalized recommendation, it can feel a bit flat because you don’t get the context. And I think personalization can work so much better when you are taking this context where you’re explaining also a little bit along the way of like hey we’ve learned this about you so we believe that this is what’s right for you. Do you agree or not agree? Because then it doesn’t feel like oh okay yeah you realized I work out a lot I told you that obvious okay based on what you said you know if
we take a fitness app again of like um because I work with mainly wellness apps so a lot of my examples are going to be wellness based but I’ll try to use other ones where possible um if I told you I work out often I you know have been training for a few years you can say like well based on what you know you’ve been saying you really take your fitness seriously you want something that’s really going to challenge you and something that’s going to help you really get to that next level. Is that correct? Like it’s still quite generic, but it already feels a lot better than you work out a lot. Yeah, I told you I
work out a lot. >> Absolutely. I mean, it’s it’s like the sales, right? Sales 101. You let the customer talk and then you just give them back. You just sort of reiterate what they just said there, too. >> Why don’t we do it in apps then? >> I know, Daffany. Well, I was going to say the the category that I feel like does it the best are probably fitness and wellness apps. Like that take that information and give you a plan and all that stuff. Yeah, definitely. And they’re all sort of ones again on the website who are leading a bit that front and probably because of that have always had slightly more flexibility in testing a lot more
and adjusting. But I think even with them like I’ve been testing a few like bigger ones and I I just feel like that information isn’t feeding back in any way. Are there any other contexts that you feel like we’ve missed here that are relevant? >> No, I think that was perfect. The >> Danyes I love. >> I know. [clears throat] Oh, I forgot the aviator. I love Daffy’s LinkedIn post. And then Lisio, they finally guessed it. Ted, it is Ted Lasso. And I did forget my aviator. Hopefully my wife come home.
I can just ask her to bring it up. It’s in the garage. But >> yeah, sorry guys. I was going to come as Keely, but it’s ironically very hard to get the outfit here in the UK and actually get the the shirt for it. It’s easier to get like the Ted Lasso, but to get like a shirt for of the team, it was strange strangely hard. I had some vintage fights that I didn’t win. [laughter] So, you just get a little spider instead. >> I love it, Daffany. One of the the next trend is one that we’re actually testing out, too. One that I really really love.
So, let’s get to that one. Next trend. >> Yeah. So, hybrid monetization. Um, this has really been taking off. And with hybrid monetization, we’re not just talking about, you know, doing subs and one-off payments. There’s a whole kind of mix of things that are going on. I think the classic one that has been run for a lot longer is kind of this subs and ads combination. Um, but we’re also even seeing physical products. For example, um I think there’s uh
reading.com even has like physical books for like the kids as well that they can follow along with that they’re selling via Amazon or we’re planning to sell through their um usage base is also on the rise due to AI and this cost per actually using of it. And so if we look here again at the state of subscription app report um we can see that there’s quite a big combination that actually has some kind of even you know a different type of uh payment option. So consumables are doing subscription consumable lifetime and at that
percentage of subscription only is still the highest but it’s slowly growing and I’m really curious to see what the report. So I’m I’m a data nerd. I like comparing the reports and seeing [laughter] like how changed each year if they haven’t done a yearly comparison in it. So I have this copy saved and I’m so excited next year to compare it then and see like has this grown for which category has it grown because the prediction is that it is going to be growing. And the nice thing about this is that unlocks basically new revenue
opportunities I think especially for premium apps. It’s very interesting um to kind of capture users because not everyone wants to commit to full subscription. So having these options can help you better monetize the people who are never going to subscribe. >> Yeah. >> You can go back real quick. >> Yeah, of course. >> Would you mind? Um now this is not this is me Steve talking. What I would say is Apple, please stop rejecting our lifetime offers. You know what I’ve seen
sometimes from developers is when they’ve they will add a lifetime offer and Apple is starting to reject that because it’s a change of business model. Like you can see this growing. This is a trend. Apple, please stop rejecting some of the developers who want a lifetime offer because one of our clients, he does a lifetime offer and they’re big. But it works, Daffany. It works. Like we’ll do like promos lifetime offers and they’re one of the biggest, you know,
apps in the wellness space. Like >> Yeah. >> It’s just I feel like we’re all moving because I bought the lifetime offer on Calm and I did it through the web. Yeah. But I did it through the web and I’m just like Apple, you’re just forcing us to just go elsewhere to figure out things if you’re going to start being such a have a tight hold on things that we can do in the app store. >> Yeah. And it also causes a lot of hassle either for the user already like um the app itself because either you have to let the user know please cancel your
subscription. It’s not going to auto cancel because lifetime even though we call it lifetime subscription it often it’s not actually a subscription in any way. um so it doesn’t override your existing subscription in now and also if you’re then doing on the web it’s separate from it so either you know the app needs to make sure your subscriptions been cancelled which I can imagine the volumes of calm is an absolute nightmare unless maybe there’s a way to automate it I’m not a developer I’m not the most technical on those kind of things so maybe there is a way but it just seems like an extra loop like an
extra step also for smaller apps of like having to work that out and having to go through that hassle when they already have a million things on their plate Yeah, 100%. >> But agree, Apple, if you’re listening, please. It’s not nice. You get money still from the lifetime subscription, too, right? They get the same fe. >> They’re listening. [laughter] >> Sorry. Um, yeah, I think one thing. So these are kind of the main options and I have seen also apps um do for example
I saw like subs ads and then also like virtual currency um and I would and then with the subs they had like three or four different like packages so weekly, monthly, quarterly, annual and then I’m like it’s too complicated. Let’s simplify it down. So I would just say like every single extra thing creates complexity and just be really conscious that if you are going to do multiple how do you explain it and how do you make sure that it doesn’t feel like too much?
Um which one do you feel like is because you mentioned lifetime but are there any other ones that you’re seeing more and more often? >> Yeah, I mean obviously I’ve seen a lot of these subs and like the credits and packs and we’ve seen that work pretty well too. we move for one of our apps, we started adding the ads, the subs and ads just to kind of see what else would happen. And I’ve got like other things that I’m testing here as well. But I think like physical, like one of the clients we work with, the physical aspect was just sending people to Amazon
and if there is a physical component to an app and putting an affiliate link and he was she was the the client that I’m looking at was we sent an email campaign be like here’s our top, you know, whatever. products and and it was just an affiliate link. And so physical is just easy. And one of my clients, he added it to his app just like, “Hey, if you want to buy the physical products, >> go check it out on Amazon.” And you get credit for whatever they buy. >> Yeah, exactly. I think like you don’t have to have necessarily a whole ecom
store. >> I think just even like having recommendations and things like that. And I think physical really makes sense when something can add to that experience of having the physical. Like again fitness comes immediately to mind because you want to have um you know the workout equipment around it and I think ladder during like COVID when there was such a lack of it like shared that they like bought a load of I think it was cannibals load [laughter] of cannibals and just sold those and that you know helps them actually use it. Um, but I think like there’s definitely other use
cases like having those physical reading books if you’re a reading app. And I think it just can also build that additional kind of loyalty to it because I think when I’m I’m because I do a bit of work also with ecom brands whenever we’re looking at like how do we get that stickiness and that habit formation. We’re looking at like what can you put in your house that will remind you of this? And I do think with apps like yes, you’ve got the idea of adding a widget to your phone. Yes, you are on your phone a lot, but you know we all have so many apps these days. so easy to forget what you’ve got on there or what you
want to use. And so having something physical that goes with it that kind of is in their space and reminds them of you is a really cool one. >> Yeah, I love it. I think >> element >> I think the biggest brands do that. Like you think about, you know, Pelaton and having a physical product along with the subscription, right? Like it kind of makes sense. Think about Apple, right? Like and so yeah, I really like that. I want to address Adam’s question real quick, Deafany. So, apps or reviews rejecting the lifetime inapp purchases because if you submit a new inapp
purchase and it has to be a non-consumable inapp purchase, Apple’s starting to reject it and say, “No, you don’t. We’re not going to let you do that because you’re changing your business model from subscription base to lifetime.” So, that’s that’s the rejection that we’re getting, Adam, just to be all right, Daffany. And I like the next one. This one’s a little tricky. So, I would love to see hear like where you’ve seen the next one work a bit more >> than not or if you’ve seen certain apps do the next one a lot better. And that
next one is >> web checkout. Um, so divide and conquer. So, I think most people will have heard about the like shifts that you can basically have the web payments in app. Um, and that yeah, it’s still only US. My prediction around this is that it is going to eventually spread broader, but obviously with anything that has legal changes, it does take time. Um, and we’re also seeing of course on the web side of things like web flows giving more like tracking and you know having
lower fees and offering more control. Um, but they’re not a silver bullet by any means. I think trust and UX really matters in this. We’re definitely seeing a huge rise on like the side of like more and more web funnels being tested. is becoming easy and easier to their set and we’re seeing um more and more apps also test these inapp links. So you can see also with Spotify here um how they basically have a link then to the web with there. So it is a really interesting um interesting one but
basically with tests like what it kind of shows is that it doesn’t win naturally in all of them. So even though with like web you are having lower fees, it can also feel a bit like untrustworthy to leave it and it also does add like an extra step to it all versus the usual way that people are used to it. So I think especially with younger audiences, it can be a bit of an issue. So that’s why I say it’s not a silver bullet. Like it also testing web properly does take time. I usually
recommend at least three to six months on it. Um, and you need to really build that usage trust around it and make sure that there’s minimum friction and also consider like operational overhead. So if you haven’t been running web before that and you’ve just started doing this because of this option of having these web payments, you need to be conscious that before that the app store was taking care of everything in terms of like taxes and compliance, you know, need to even make sure that you’re using um a merchant of record like paddle or finding a different solution for it. So,
and then I think it can backfire especially with like younger audiences who are used to kind of that native uh inapp experience. I think older audiences are a bit more used to paying on the web. They’re not as fussed about it. So, if you want to be testing this, I would say rather than test it with everyone, maybe testing it instead with kind of like who you identify as high intent um and then offering it through that in like post on boarding or promo screens uh versus with the low intent. try to keep them in app first to warm
them up and build that trust because you might not have that trust yet to get them there. Um I don’t know if you have any tips on how you can approach this with this younger audience because I am conscious that obviously they are one of the biggest groups the Gen Z and a millennial kind of group in if we can consider millennial still the younger one. They’re kind of in between. [laughter] >> Yeah, >> I’m a millennial. I’m allowed to say that. Another thing that we’ve seen is just like chargebacks and people like disputing the charges on there. And a friend of mine, Ethan, who was a past guest of mine, he’s building some
technology. So, a little little teaser there, and I won’t give away any of it, but I we kind of showed it off at the Revenue Cat event. Anyways, so that’s another thing to think about. Dafany, I almost feel like just to keep things simple. Like if you’re gonna do >> I rather just do web to web and then app to app like you know like almost keep it simple not try to complicate it yet unless you’re one of the bigger players like Spotify, Netflix, you know it kind of makes sense for you and Spotify has always done this Audible in a way. >> Yeah.
But for the most majority of developers out there like hey app to app and web to web like let’s just keep it simple. >> Yeah. What do you think? It’s it’s a good point about like with those bigger ones. I think the difference with them also is like you listen to Spotify on your laptop, you watch Netflix on your laptop to do >> like it isn’t something that you’re just using on your phone by any means. So to then do the web payments or be pushed to do the web payments, it doesn’t feel as strange. I think the only case where I
have had kind of like as a personal experience a hiccup with is like Kindle where they won’t let you buy the books from your phone directly because they don’t want to pay that fee. And then you’re kind of like searching for books and you’re kind of like seeing like how do I buy this? Can I buy this? And then it’s really annoying. Um and then I’m just like leave it. I’m not going to buy it now. I’m gonna and then you know sometimes you end up like losing interest in it. So I do feel like in some cases it can actually almost like add that friction of it. But yeah, I definitely think like those bigger ones
and like what you said with like I think I would also agree with like first maybe test the web to web side of it and if that’s really working well for you, you’ve built kind of like a trust a good setup you you’ll have also way bigger like audiences to test with than just doing a part of your audience um going at to web um and then you could always see like later okay based on that maybe for example in our email flows we want to send them to that instead because that feels maybe more natural than sending them from the app there.
Yeah, I like it. Henry says, “With the physical product stuff,” so rewind, “When I worked at comp, they added a lavender sleep spray for your pillow.” I kind of like that idea. I’m like, I got to get more. >> We’re lifetime subscribers and we’ve missed out on a lavender sleep spray. >> I know. I know. Get out of here. >> Okay, >> so we got the last one. I’m sorry. >> I said they need to make it maybe clearer, [laughter] but we can move on to the last triangle. Well, we probably stopped using it. I moved on to the
Bellaton meditations and stuff. >> Oh gosh. That’s that’s why I like working with Bonus is because I just I have probably tested every single thing. [laughter] >> Yeah. >> Um so the last one I have to give credit to Nathan Hudson for because this was one that he mentioned. Uh but I do think it is a really interesting one. Um because it kind of like highlights again like this web trend and I really struggled with putting the web trends in here because I was like free trends. I couldn’t even before like and I was like how how do I split this up in the right
way? But I felt like this was worth kind of separating out because I feel like when it comes to apps, it’s kind of been always this idea of like, you know, we do either half payable or we have a more premium experience, we do a trial, we don’t do a trial. But because of like the app store regulations, we haven’t really like been as creative as we could compared to if you look at like ecom. And that’s why I like having the ecom side of like things as well because a lot of the things that they are testing there um is inspiration for what we can now do with
the web side of it. Um and so money back is basically instead of offering a free trial which in general do work on the web because of also what got mentioned of like chargebacks or people using cards with no money on them. Um is instead of having a free trial, it’s like no, let’s just offer a money back guarantee. um and focus on that because that also means we get the im immediate purchase uh which is also great for the paid side of things. Um, you already said hard pay
wall, better signal. Same concept here. Uh, but just using this to kind of soften the blow of it. And so it’s really interesting because with ExpressVPN, I used them a while ago and then they kind of had this free trial and I used that and then I revisited them. Um, and they now really focus on the guarantee and they basically have like all these like little extra things below it of like is it one month or 30 days? Why does it beat a free trial? like and it basically explained like look you know with the free trial you
can do that but you’re going to get limited features versus with the guarantee >> you know no you’ll get your full refund no hassle no stress um and you kind of like you do have to have that trust with them and make it really clear what your policy is about it but I think it’s a really interesting one to kind of like up that because then you’re not losing people as much in the trial period and if you’re working with a money back guarantee you’re really like okay I can’t just cancel and then not worry about it I need to actually use this and tried this properly. So, I think that’s like a really interesting one to
consider. And the ones where I would say it’s worth testing for would be ones that are more premium products and you’ve got a strong onboarding before that to build the trust. Um, and you’ve got a good attribution setup. I think that’s also important with it. Um, so those are the ones I would say like, hey, this is an interesting one to test. I don’t know if you’ve ever tested this out or not. >> I have. And the I I kind of said this in 2022, so this is my example.
Was before his time. [laughter] >> Sorry, Nathan. Come on. The >> just stealing my 2022 ideas. [laughter] >> The So I said Aptive, like this was something that I’ve always seen on the web because I come from the web stuff. Like Aptive, I saw you see this 30-day money back guarantee and I was like, why aren’t we saying this to app >> on the app? because Apple takes care of everything. Like you if you want a refund, Apple will likely give you a refund. And so I thought we could start leveraging that verbiage back when I saw
this example through Aptive and then you know they had a a win back offer right here too. >> But yeah, I love the money back guarantee. It it works. >> Did So you you guys tested that in on the app side and saw like a boost on it. I don’t know if we absolutely did like a a true AB test, Stephanie, but this was one where I was just like, hey, this is an interesting I know it works on the web and so I don’t see why it wouldn’t work on the app side of things.
Yeah, it’s a fair shout too of like, okay, why we why we shy away from it on the app side. Yeah. >> Um because like you say, it it’s maybe not as simple on the website, but it is like very easy if there especially if the refunds, you know, are going directly through the app store. So it is it is possible to test. I I can imagine if it’s getting too high a rate, it’s not ideal. But if it like in my experience, the amount of people who actually do this and claim a money back guarantee, >> it’s very small. >> It’s really small. If you have a good
experience and you’re managing expectation up front, >> I’ve seen it really high when there’s been like sneaky upsells and which is more on the website. it was a web funnel where we had that where when I joined I was like I think we are being a little bit too cheeky with the whole oneclick upsell it’s not obvious enough what they’re getting um or when it’s like not clear up front what to expect from the app then it increases but then I’m like actually the only thing that you know it probably was already quite high to begin with so you could have probably known that this wouldn’t be the right move
right now you need to focus on getting that refund rate lower by improving the experience and expectations >> yeah I mean these guys were doing both active they had the the 7-day trial and a 30-day money back guarantee. So, >> we’re doubling up. I mean, that’s also an option. Test both. >> Um, >> it’s on the app, right? Like, it’s it’s fair enough, right? So, it’s it’s just >> we do our normal trial and then we just add that as >> marketing >> kind of like an extra reassurance. I think what’s nice about the combination then is because you see with trials like
a lot of people are just cancelling because they want to test it first and they’re scared of forgetting it. But then when you’re like, “Oh, I’ve got my 30-day guarantee.” There isn’t that like I’m going to cancel this on day one or day zero basically and like immediately cancel it and just just in case. You’re more likely to be like, you know what, I’m not going to. I’m going to try it properly because I’ve got the 30-day guarantee even if I forget. It kind of adds that like padding that, you know, you’re not as worried about it. I can imagine. >> We should test this. Okay, we will get a
proper test going for you, Deafany. >> Yes. I I love I told you I love data. I want to see I want to see the results of that. I know it doesn’t say everything but um always curious. Um so I think yeah the way I kind of explain it is monetization is getting smarter and spicier for sure. Um I think apps are willing to charge more and owning it and rightfully so. Why? Because it’s on your mobile should we you know kind of settle to initial pricing that people kind of
expected with apps. I think static pricing is slowly dying. I think more and more dynamic pricing within regulations is going to grow and that subscription only is becoming for a lot of apps outdated again there’s always a dependent and I think that web flows are also just unlocking new tactics and approaches and I think that’s really exciting to see um so yeah those are the five trends that we basically yeah have been seeing and I think it makes for >> really interesting potential tests and
I’m also hoping that everyone watching has also as we’ve gone through this had a moment where they’re like, “Oh, this is something we can test.” Um, because they won’t apply to all apps, but there definitely is at least one or two things in there for everyone. >> I love it. I love it. Dany, is that you have a favorite one of yours of the five trends? >> Choose a favorite. I think I like I like the contextual testing. I think that’s really really interesting. Um, because I think it just meets people more where they are at. And
I’ve always felt like that, you know, we don’t do that enough that we approach things sometimes too statically. So I think that would be my favorite of actually using the context more to adjust what you’re doing and not just like the basics of like country but getting a bit more like creative around there. What about you? >> I think No, I think this is one of my favorites too. The I mean the hybrid in this because I think we are sleeping on this. I have a future guest that’s coming on in about a month, but he’s been able to find some extreme success
in his home country of Thailand and running ads there. And I’m like, what? Like, you know, people, I think, sleep on they just tend to focus on tier one countries. And I’m like, look, there’s the world is huge. People are willing to pay as long as you’re offering something good. And so, I do I do like this as well. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think like if with the like kind of country region side of it a lot of people also just accept the standard pricing but the standard pricing of like Apple and Google they aren’t actually accurate according to
like what people spend in that category what people expect what competitors within that category are charging and so I think flow also had like a huge lift in Brazil by just being a bit more conscious of like what pricing actually matches them better versus the standard recommendations and also which of their packages they put forward. So, shorter durations. I think that’s also a very interesting one of like matching the durations to it. I have an app I’m working with right now where I’m trying to work out if this would count as discrimination or not. Maybe you have an
idea. Um where like we see that there’s a very young audience of like 16 to 20 and then there’s like the 20 to 26 group. 20 to 26 group more likely to go for annuals, more likely to go for um monthlys. the younger group are really going to go tend to just want the weekly because they don’t have that kind of same spending power. They’re a bit more skeptical and like >> um less keen on subscriptions in general. That’s maybe a generalization, but that is a slightly higher trend
around that age group. And so I’m wondering like can we basically we know they’re age friendly on boarding. Could we adjust which packages we’re showing them? So we’re not charging different prices, but we’re kind of highlighting different packages. I’m not sure if that would actually count as discrimination, but >> No, I like it. No, it’s Yeah, it’s it’s personalized pricing. I I think, you know, the people on the web have been doing this for years, so I don’t I don’t think so at all. >> Yeah, I think as long as you’re not charging a different annual price, it wouldn’t count as kind of like the discrimination. So, that’s also like a different example of something that
we’ve been thinking about that you can also maybe if it’s allowed like this is not legal advice, please double check this first before you. [laughter] I guess >> I’m always so careful with these things. I’m like, I’m not [clears throat] legally advising you in any way. [laughter] My wife’s a lawyer and so I’m used to saying all this stuff. I’m like, hey, my wife’s a lawyer. [laughter] >> I know. I have to put this in here, too. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I love it. Well, thank you so much, Daffany, for sharing all this stuff. I want to get into some of our app audits,
and we like to start off every app audit, if I can find it, with some dad jokes. [music] All right, Daffany as the guest. I mean, we can move to a Halloween theme. I’m like, “All right, what about >> I’ve got Halloween dad jokes.” >> Okay. Same. Yes. >> Which one? You like this one? You like this background? >> Yeah. Let’s go for the Oh, or that one. That one’s fun. >> Okay. All right. Here we go. >> For everyone, before we got live, Steve
was just basically putting a pumpkin in front of my face. He’s like, “Look, we’ve got decoration on here.” I’m like, “Okay, if they just want to see a talking pump.” Here we go. [laughter] >> I just hide behind it again. >> There it was. >> Hey, good job, bro. I love having a producer. [laughter] All right, this is perfect. >> Right. So, >> perfect timing. >> Are you ready for ready for a bad joke? >> Yes, I am. Bad joke. I like it. >> Um, bad dad joke. Um, so what is a ghost’s favorite dessert?
What? Daffany, a >> booberry pie. Booberry pie. I love it. Okay, Daffany, I’ve got one. Thank you, Agent. This one repeats. You gota watch out for that one. Okay, let me handle this. Okay, producer, I’m kicking you out again. [laughter] All right, Daffany, which one? What should I do? Okay, two monsters went to a Halloween party. Suddenly, one said to the other, "A lady just rolled her eyes at me. What should
I do?" The other one says, “Be a gentleman and roll it back to her.” There you go. All [laughter] right. >> Just put D or S if you thought Dafy’s joke was better. Put D and then put S if you thought my joke was >> I actually have to vote. If I I would have led with my best one then. >> Okay. [laughter] >> I think they’re all terrible. I think I actually think the level is uh pretty low. We can do another round. It is round. >> Yeah, sure. >> Just for you. Just for Halloween,
just for Halloween, we’ll make it fun. Okay. And if you want your app featured in a future app audit, just go to appmasters.com audit.app appmasters.com/ audit. And if you want to sit down with me for an hour, that’s the same link as well. All right, Arvin. Arvin Arvin’s app is right here. We got the votes coming in. Whoops. Let me remove this. Not this. All right. He’s got a macro tracker app called Calorie Kit. uh wants help on ASO and then onboarding. Okay.
Anything from the app store presence? >> Yeah. So, when I was looking at the app in the app store, I think this is less on the ASO side. Um >> I feel like you’re going to be the one who’s got the great tips on that side. Uh but I was just thinking when I was seeing this like it’s a very competitive category >> and so I really struggled to pull out of this what exactly was kind of the main differentiator or why I would download this specific tracker. Um, so it felt like it was like, okay, I kind of get what I can do with it. I can track.
There’s like a weight loss kind of program with it. The screenshot said 28 days and then the text below said like 21 days. Um, so like that’s slightly inconsistent, but I don’t think most people would notice that. But I’m just wondering like what could you kind of like really differentiate in there of like is it like that you’ve got this great 21 program that helps you achieve XY Z? For example, I’ve been testing ladder has just launched this week their nutrition feature and I something I
absolutely love about it is just I can voice note in what I’ve been eating and I’m so lazy with these things and I’m like so for me that that’s a huge differentiator and I’m not saying add that in but that would be what I would consider differentiates their tracker. So I think like that would be my first thing is like with the competition category with the fact that it looks like it’s harder to rank uh for this when you are getting people here how do you kind of make it a no-brainer to see like the value of it and what it is that you know you’re going to help them
achieve that the other brands that they apps they might be considering or the other techniques that they’re considering if for example manually tracking it themselves or just trying to be conscious isn’t going to help them achieve. >> Yeah, I like it. John says, “For the macro tracker, I recommend matching the color background of the App Store icon with the background of the App Store screenshots as well.” Yeah, I like that, too. I mean, this looks really good. I just ASO I think for this category, like I like macro tracker, but that’s a competitive keyword. Calorie tracker
super competitive as well. The There are other keywords around this tracker app that you might want to try to go after. I think for an app like this, given the competition, you’re going to have to find a different source of downloads than just purely ASO. It’s going to be extremely hard. That’s what I feel like coming 2026, Dafany. Like ASO is just extremely hard these days that I’d rather focus my energy on other growth channels. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah, I think you’ve also got a point of like a looking at where you’re
going to actually compete on because like from what I can see here and I know it’s not all the reviews but like you know 4.4 for on average it’s saying 11 ratings which makes me feel like there probably isn’t you know huge amount yet which is okay like this is not shaming any way the rating order um or or like the amount of reviews but it’s more like just looking also with those keywords like where are you actually going to be at the same level as that and that like when people then see that and are comparing it that you know if it is similar that it’s at least like they
don’t feel like hey this could be the one that’s you know not as big or doesn’t have as much to offer which I think when you’re in those smaller keywords and they might have a bit less volume. You are potentially potentially going to rank higher but also not look as if you’re, you know, below what else is in the category versus like some of those main keywords where you’ve got these like bigger optimized apps who are getting higher ratings. You know, people might notice that a bit more. >> Yep. Absolutely. Henry says, “Agree somehow differentiate your app.” So,
Arvin, let’s do that. All right, we got similar feedback. All right, let’s get into the app itself. Deafany, maybe we can give Arvin some. Deafany, you wouldn’t you know it, you know, you’re just dominating in terms of the dad jokes votes. >> I know >> traitor >> being nice to me as the guest even though I didn’t make the same Halloween. This is the Halloween costume [laughter] effort. Al feel bad that I failed at being cutie next year. I’ll be back next year for Halloween.
Okay. Welcome to Calie Kit. Any thoughts? This is the first page, Ephanany. This is the first time I’m opening the app. >> Yeah. So, I think here I kind of had that same feeling as I’m still kind of struggling to see like, okay, what is it going to be that’s um, you know, really stands out on this. And I feel like there’s a lot of also generic kind of words and repetition of like easiest, accurate, is being used twice. Um, I would kind of try to have like the promise here like these are very like
focused on like what the features would do for you, but what is the outcome that your audience is hoping to achieve from the onboarding? You’re probably going to know like what people are focusing on. Often with these kind of things like I can imagine it is a bit more around like weight loss. Um, but you can see better than I can like what people are indicating that they’re focusing on. Um, so I would try to have that here of like, hey, you know, you probably can’t promise like, oh, you’re going to lose this weight, but you can focus a bit more on that outcome that they’re hoping to achieve. Um, and maybe even just having a bit more like an idea of what
you’re going to get in there or making this a bit more fun or interactive of expectations around here um, to really get them to like want to sign in um, and take that next step because the signin is like Yeah, it’s quite standard to start with that, but it is a bigger ask. >> Yeah. And we’ve actually seen es we had a fitness app a couple years ago where we swapped the two. So they had some onboarding Daphany versus just straight sign in right on the first page. But when we flipped >> so we had onboarding and then sign in
and then payw wall. When we flipped the two and did onboarding payw wall and then signin, we actually saw 52% increase in sales because to your earlier point about paywall views, our paywall views were 60%. So we’re losing 40% of our users just on the signup page. >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And I think like it’s like is it actually worth it for you at this point? Like how many people are you losing versus like especially if you are offering like Apple login like if a lot of people are using that you probably can’t even be like you know
you’re probably not even able to contact them further beyond that because most of the people aren’t using the email that they use mainly as their um kind of login. Um, [clears throat] this also I felt like could be a really good opportunity because it started 90 centimeters. I was like short. >> Yeah, I was gonna say, >> yeah, [laughter] now we finally find out how tall Steve is. >> I’m not hiding it. And the truth. Yeah, it’s six seven. [laughter] No.
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. >> Hi. >> I don’t know. My My daughter’s probably like cringing right now that I said that. >> Yeah. [laughter] It’s It’s nice because I’m like, “Here, you you can reveal this part of it, but I’m not going to say the second [laughter] one for me.” Um, yeah, same with this one. So, kind of the standard I see um for health apps is that you’ve got a box where you can fill in your weight or your height. And there’s usually some kind of validation to make sure it’s within a reasonable range. And then you can switch metrics. So you’re either choosing your metric
because the other thing you need to keep in mind with that previous screen is that because of the way it’s formulated the second metric if people are using that the mental load of trying to find it like if you don’t you aren’t familiar as familiar with like kiddos like the mental load of them like trying to figure out like okay how much pounds and stones and what whatot um is a lot tougher. Yeah very active with the pelon. Yeah, we have the Oh, >> you get to eat so much more than I do.
[laughter] >> You expected. >> Yeah, >> men always have a higher higher amount. >> Yeah. >> Oh my gosh, there’s no payw wall. Bethany, >> I I got a pay wall. I think >> you did. >> I thought I did. >> I remember when I tested it. I thought um >> I can’t even figure out a way to >> Yeah, maybe maybe I didn’t feel like cuz I had like personalized plan and then
Yeah, I think what I I would also say at this kind of like with the previous onboarding is you’re asking a lot but you’re not necessarily giving. And so I think it’s when you’ve got an onboarding you really need to think of that like ebber flow of like >> asking acknowledging what they’re saying and giving and you know trying to add value along the way of it. Like I think n’s pay wall is insanely long and I was testing it recently because they have
like a landing page style pay wall that I wanted to use as an example and then I messed up and had to redo basically on its quickest a five minute onboarding. It was insane. What they do do really well is like as you go through it is like they kind of like acknowledge what you’ve said and mention like hey x percentage actually see this and oh it’s really good that you’re doing this. So all the things I was already saying I was doing in terms of like you know keeping in mind like what I was eating and calories and stuff like that. So I think there’s a really good opportunity with this side of it of like how do you
make them feel like hey they’re being heard they’re being seen and you’re not just asking them for information but you’re giving back. >> Yeah I love it. Um, it’s a well a feature I think that’s not in the onboarding but worth mentioning. I love the fact you have like a vote feature in the app. I saw that >> a vote feature >> but it was Yeah, it was like if you if you wanted a feature I saw on my one I saw that you could like vote a feature up and it took you to a link. >> Maybe I was clicking through to something specific but it was like
here vote give feedback. Yeah, it was there, but I saw it on like if you go back, it’s the third one other under, but it was also underneath a different feature of like what should we add to this overview. So, I do really I have to give credit like that. I really love the focus on also getting like use based feedback on what you’re prioritizing. >> Yeah, I love that. That’s a good one. >> Steve likes it so much he’s taking a screenshot. [laughter] >> There you go. Just for submitting, I’ll give you a review. >> I’ll make sure to review, too. I
promise. Oh, he’s got a review thing. Anyways, great. Okay, Daffany, I already gave you a spoiler. You did win. And I do want to thank our friends at Appsfly and Arcads.ai. If you’re looking for an AI UGC solution, Arcads is some amazing amazing features. Super realistic. And you can get a lot of great hooks through arcads.ai that you can test using a you know, AIUGC’s. And obviously, Appsfly, one of the biggest MMPs out there, mobile measurement partners. So, if
you’re starting to run growth and multi- channelannel campaigns, you’re going to need to figure out where these revenues and those downloads are coming from. Appsfllier is one of the biggest MMPs out there. So, thank you to our friends at Appsfllier and Arcads and H. We don’t need to go through the score, okay? We already know Daffany won. All right, we don’t need to know the score, but let’s pick a winner for our Indie App Santa promo and I will share your spinning wheel. Good. H, we only have five votes, guys. Come on. I know how many people are here literally.
And the winner is a >> Adam. Good. All right. Very welld deserving. Very engaged. Thank you, Adam. Just email me, Adam, and then I’ll I’ll hook you up with an Indie App Santa promo on us. All right, Deafany, you got time for one more. We’re going to go straight to Henry’s app. I won’t spend too much on the app store presence, but we will just to save time because, you know, we’re gonna have people coming
over yelling trickor treat. So, this is called Skill Hub. >> To hear screaming outside my window, it’s the trick-or-treaters. It’s a bit late here. I’m in London. >> Yeah, [laughter] the So, Henry wants feedback on user experience and visuals. So, you can learn how to code using AI. Good reviews, good number of ratings, too. >> Pretty cool stuff. I have to ask, is it really for the usage of the app that you have to have the latest version of iPhone? Is there no way to use earlier?
Because both Steve and I spent some time updating our phone [laughter] before this. Um, >> yeah, >> because I was quite surprised to see that it was 26 onwards and yeah, I just can imagine that that does have an impact. Um, but yeah, I uh I assume there is a reason behind it, but I was like, oh gosh, I have to do two updates. I had to update to a new version of 18 and then update to 26. >> I know my poor IO this is my iPhone 11 and I was like thank god it still
supports it and I was like it’s it’s definitely slower. >> I was like does does to which device is 26 supported? >> I mean I think it’s 11 I forget what’s the lowest one but it’s definitely slower. I have the 17 that’s the latest one right here. >> I’m surprised that you’re an 11. >> Yeah. No, that’s this is just a test phone. I didn’t [laughter] want Yes, >> you’ve already got the new 17. I have to give props, by the way. I do feel like the visuals are very um strong in the
app. Um also in the app store, I did really like them. I think here where Ashley’s speaking. >> Yes, she is. >> If you don’t have voice uh like on, you might just kind of be wondering what’s going on here. you were like, "Oh, I’m missing it and I’ve got to grab headphones and like cuz like I was playing it and I was like, “Oh, I can’t actually play out loud right now. This will be really awkward and I don’t have my headphones with me.” And so I think like that’s one thing I would always consider if you are going to add I love
video. I love video and onboarding. I love video on on the pay wall too. I think it’s a really interesting thing to test. But I would always try to make sure if possible there’s either subtitles or there’s an option to kind of like pause or at least let them know like hey you are going to need sound for the next step so that they can prepare. Um because I do think otherwise you kind of miss a lot of the context with this. >> Yeah we have seen that even like for maybe the wellness apps you’re working with Daffany like adding let’s say it’s a meditation app or like a soundsscape
type of app adding sound to the onboarding but making it visually known does increase conversions. So, I I definitely like the idea. We’ve seen video work pretty well, too. >> Yeah, I was testing a sleep app that is a good example of that. Do I still have on my phone? Uh, Luna, L O O N A. They have like sound in their background and it’s kind of like very calming and it adds the experience. So, it’s not that you can’t use sound, but it’s definitely like kind of that clarity with it. And
then the other thing I was thinking with this with like the flow was like um so here you also have the same problem like how do you know which one you want? It’s a very visual thing right now which kind of almost gets like an awkward figure of like which one of these do I prefer. >> I know that’s what I’m thinking right now too. I’m like I’m thinking in front of everybody here. [laughter] I don’t know who to pick. >> Gonna find out who’s the type is >> I’m gonna hide it. Let’s go. Okay. >> Yeah. [laughter] Um, no, but it was it was with those two like it was really like I don’t actually
know the difference. Is it just it’s probably the voice? But if I can’t hear them at that point, you know, kind of like even maybe if you if it is really important that voice like having that option of just kind of saying like, you know, smooth and like, you know, comforting or like just some like kind of like, hey, what what how do they sound or like is it like different accents? Like I don’t know. Um, with that, >> I would almost prefer this experience before the sign up. I just think you’re
going to you’re I mean, I don’t know what you’ve seen on your end, Stephanie, but we’ve seen the best we’ve seen is like 90% >> conversion rate to that signup page. And obviously, we’ve seen much lower than that. I just feel like I want for me, especially in the beginning, I want data. >> So, what languages are they picking? Are they SW picking Swift, HTML, CSS, Python? Which person are they creating? Which instructor, you know, like I want to know all this stuff. And then obviously we wanted to get them to the
payw wall >> and yeah, before >> Yeah. And I think it also said on like in the AMP store that it was for different levels, but at this point, correct me if I’m wrong, um, because it took me so long to update it. I was very rushed [laughter] in here. Sorry, >> my my phone was my phone was not having it. Um I had to remove apps to have storage space. I’m on a 14, so definitely not the latest version. But um I couldn’t see like what level of
coding I’m at. And so when you’re then saying I’m personalizing it based on you, I’m kind of like I’ve only given you two data points. I’ve told you like what language I want to learn and which teacher but I don’t feel like I’ve actually given you enough to personalize because at most you basically have you know if it’s five languages five teachers 25 varants that’s not personalization that’s segmentation and so I I feel like there could also be a bit more like about like you know why do you want to learn um what what experience you have with coding and also
I think depending on if you are seeing it’s a more junior and experienced uh audience um I I think for more junior people, they might not even know which language they should start with always. So, it could also be if it is really for people who have never coded before and want to get a first certificate, what you’d kind of recommend like based on like why they’re trying to learn it, like which ones are the best for it. I think um you’ve probably gone through this on boarding, I would imagine, with this kind of app, but Mimo does that really well.
No, I haven’t. I should check it out. >> Yeah, I was saying maybe to Henry Henry that he’s gone through. >> Oh, >> is it [laughter] Henry or H? I can’t remember if it was sent in. >> It’s It’s Henry. >> Okay, cool. >> Yeah, >> you know who’s behind it. >> Well, that’s I just got the person’s name. They What do you think about the three-day trial and then $90 a year? >> Oh, yeah. So, with this um so I don’t I just something about this just made me feel like it wasn’t super clear if that makes sense. like kind of
the hierarchy of it of like the free 3 days trial and then then 99 or it’s this start my free trial. It was kind of like because the 8 39 was like bigger. I was kind of like thinking like wait so what are you going to then charge me after? What can I expect? And obviously you can see that when you go to free trials and you could check all plans but like something about like just the way that was written I just unnecessarily added confusion if that makes sense. Um, and I also think like with if you’re going to
get them to do that three-day challenge, like especially with coding, it’s a perfect thing to say like, “Hey, three-day trial and our challenge to you is, you know, do x number of lessons to already be able to learn this by the end of the three days.” >> Yeah. >> Or like if you spend five minutes a day, if you’ve asked them like how much time they want to spend on it, you’re going to be able to do this at the end of the day if you commit for three days. Like I think you could really like make it a bit more fun. >> Yep. >> I love it. clarify it better and with such a short trial like the fact that it isn’t very clear on like reminders and
stuff like that I do worry you are going to have a lot of immediate cancels >> I just thought of idea what you just said Dafany so like you know we’ve we’ve seen Dualingo say hey having people commit to a goal >> actually increases retention and conversion and I wonder with an app like this make that goal slidable so what is your goal and then you have a chart and you you slide it for five minutes and then you get this results 10 minutes you get this results and 15 minutes you get this results. So, it kind of inspires me to be like, "Okay, well, if I just do 15
minutes, I’m going to 2x my learning a bit more." >> Yeah, Duolingo, I think, does that with saying like how many words you’re going to lo use. Um, I recently had to retest the onboarding for um >> an article I was writing about like video [snorts] pay walls, like using a video on your payw wall and >> um they use an animation. They don’t actually use video. um I learned afterwards. [laughter] Um but they have like I think like a number of like words you lose and like what you can do. But I think even that is a bit like in my opinion kind of
focusing on the um input rather than the output because why are you trying to learn the language? You probably want to communicate like so if you do 15 [clears throat] minutes a day you’ll be able to use short sentences in a month or if you do five minutes a day you’ll be able to do that in you know two three months. Like I think you could make it even more tangible. It’s the same with coding of like, okay, you’re going to be able to write, you know, basic HTML to set up a simple >> web page. I don’t know what what like the expectations are and the duration, but I think that could be really
interesting. >> Yeah, that’s perfect. And what I would say is one of the pay walls that have worked the best. Couple of things that I wanted to point out was, you know, the video side. This is the recipe flow, and I won’t go through the whole thing, but they have do they have a video right here. They ask for the review after they let you import a recipe. Anyways, this type of flow, this three screens, we’ve seen this work pretty well for most of our clients. I wouldn’t say all. >> Yeah. >> The but yeah, this one works pretty well. And then what I would also say, Henry, and this is not the Henry that’s
here, just to let you guys know, but play around with the trials period because we have seen that sometimes with a high annual, I know it’s not that high on the web, but high on the app leads to really low trial to paid rates. So typically I think maybe seven and I’ve even heard from certain clients 14 doing a bit better but I would play around with that trial period a bit more. >> Yeah, I think it comes back to those that like you know what your expectations are of that period with it.
Like I did a test of 7 to 14 and we actually just saw like it just spread out and made people slower with it. And I think because we weren’t conscious enough of like what we wanted to get them to do in the 14 days versus like actually making sure like hey there’s a really clear plan of what they want to do. And I also think like with this you could do really kind of like this sense of progress. So like a checklist of like hey you’ve already made your account you’ve committed to learning a language next step is do your first lesson today and like get you know or sign up for a trial. Do your first lesson today and
you feel like you’re making progress already even if it’s more false sense of progress. and definitely seeing the same with you where actually you know splitting out that um pay wall into multiple screens like I think the lines are blurring between what’s pay wall and on boarding um and you’ve got there kind of like with the previous one that classic and here also like the link is honest payw wall which you know it varies in in terms of success but it does build that trust but I think it’s that main thing of like building that trust in in there and there’s different ways to do it and I think the blinkers
kind of honest approach is a good way um and allows you to it a lot more clearer than just trying to squeeze it on one screen. >> Yeah. And we one of our past guests took this page and try to improve upon it to your what you said Daphne about like hey day one you know here’s what you’re going to learn day one. So giving them that that plan especially if you’ve got that 7-day trial like hey give the 7-day trial. I saw another app do this pretty well and instead of like it’s again it’s
the same type of idea here but hey here’s we want to offer you seven days for free and here’s what’s going to be involved so I like that >> Henry’s also other Henry >> other Henry yes >> the OG Henry has some really good points too >> yeah can you share social proof of people getting hired making amount of money yeah that’s that really works well >> completing the course so forth >> yeah I love it Great tips. Henry’s a smart dude. Like, Deafany, anything I miss before we say goodbye? Finally let you go.
Feel like we’ve covered so much. >> I know. >> Yeah, >> it was good fun to go through it all. >> I loved it. And congrats on the win. I’m a little sad. What was your better joke? You want to do your better joke? >> I don’t know if it’s necessarily better. We can see if I plop against myself. Let me see. I think this one is of the >> Okay. Why didn’t the skeleton go to the party? Why? >> He had no body to go with. >> A so. [laughter] >> Sorry. Maybe I shouldn’t have ended with
a sad joke. >> No. I’ll lift it back up. Okay, Daffany. Dafany, I told my wife there’s only one thing that scares me during Halloween. She says, which is, and I said, exactly. There you go. [clears throat] Maybe maybe these thinking jokes are not good. Just give >> I feel like yours are a little bit more like smarter ones. So, Appreciate [clears throat] it. Get a good finger. >> All right. Well, go check out Daph’s Substack. It is growthwaves. Growthwaves.substack.com
and then her LinkedIn profile is also linked up in your favorite podcast app if you’re listening just the audio, but I recommend watching the video and then all the YouTube stuff as well. Daffany, if the audience wants to connect with you in any other way, do you want to send them anywhere else? I mean, feel free to message me on LinkedIn and I’ve always just hello daffanytidman.com. You’re always welcome to ask any questions. Feel free to reach out. Happy to help in any way I can. >> I love it. Why the sound is still
horrible? I don’t know. Sounds good on my end. >> Is it my sound or >> No, I don’t know. So, Adam is a winner and then he got some good results with his pass Indie App Santa promo as well. So, he’s a he’s a two-time winner. All right. >> [laughter] >> Thank you, Daffany, for coming on and doing this. Come back anytime. Next week, guys, we got a different type of format for the video. We’ve got one of our clients, Neil. He wants to ask me some questions. So, it’s going to be a live coaching call. I know we’ve gotten good feedback when we’ve done this in
the past. So, we’re going to try it one more time. So, join us every Friday. We might go a little bit earlier. Just testing that out, but mostly every Friday. And we’re going to try an 8 a.m. Pacific for all you guys out in the rest of the world. So, I’ll wake up a little bit early for you guys, but join us every Friday on YouTube. Daffany, thank you so much for coming on. >> Thanks for having me. Appreciate it. Everyone enjoyed our Halloween. Um, I hope you guys have some good costumes planned. >> Thank you, Henry, for guessing right. All right, guys. I’ll see you next week. Bye.